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Show Profile  Michael Posted: 6 April 2017, 7:25 AM  
The extra green doesn't change much, since the IOF council decreed that the specification should not include any symbols forbidden to cross (except the specific out of bounds ones). And I'm with them (and the many other countries which submitted on that). Danger, and freedom from luck, are course setting issues for which there are plenty of tools available. So if you think you can climb an "impassable cliff", swim an "uncrossable lake" etc, the specification doesn't stop you.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 6 April 2017, 7:47 AM  
ahhh strewth Michael I think you are correct. Everyone rejected the idea of the various proposed forbidden to cross, and the IOF decision to overrule was a relief. I had just presumed for some reason that the inclusion of the Impassable new green still stood as OOB - but I think you are right that it does not. That being there is almost no real need for it. I guess we can still accommodate it in places as mentioned but if someone thinks they can get an advantage by smashing through it then we can't stop them. Only legit way would be Olive green of back to the Purple hash or bounding line.

Show Profile  fraser Posted: 6 April 2017, 10:55 AM  
Michael: OCAD should be banned from use for course setting because apparently no one in New Zealand knows how to use overprint simulation correctly with it. Condes, PurplePen and OpenOrienteering Mapper, on the other hand, all seem fairly straight forward once the right settings are known.

Sorry for the trolling but hopefully I got my message across. You are correct that you still need to break lines and move numbers but the main point is overprint simulation is a requirement to print maps to specification, it is not optional.

Paul: That is an interesting point about the numbers not having overprint simulation. I notice that with PurplePen too.

Thanks for clarifying about the forbidden to cross features Michael. It does mean that "Impassable fence" may or may not be forbidden to cross depending whether the map uses ISOM2017 or ISSOM which will possibly be the most common cause of confusion for competitors.

Show Profile  fraser Posted: 6 April 2017, 11:23 AM  
>>404 ditto, but there is an error where it states you can fill the white dots with either slow or walk in the text, however then it also states the dot colour can be 50% green... which one is correct?

The dots are 50% green. Higher up it is saying that this symbol can be combined with green stripe but if that is the case you have to use the white dots version.

BTW you were always allowed to use green dots for 404, as was pointed out to me in this forum. I have used it and it was quite useful. I have never seen it used on any other maps though. It seems good you can use it with open land now too, and it will be interesting if it gets more use.

Show Profile  The Map Guy Posted: 6 April 2017, 3:32 PM  
If others are like Fraser and can't see the difference in the control circles in the overprinting on page 12 of ISOM 2017, and you are using Adobe Reader, go to Edit\Preferences\Page Display\Use Overview Preview, and select "only for PDF/X files". It should then show up on the monitor.

Now printing it is another thing - you need to choose "simulate" overprint (well that is what I used in Adobe Illustrator as it didn't print correctly with my version of Adobe Reader even though I could clearly see the overprinting on the monitor (not quite WYSIWYG).

Show Profile  The Map Guy Posted: 6 April 2017, 3:37 PM  
404 with green dots was used in the 2017 Katoa Po Rogaine map for areas which had lots of gorse areas

Show Profile  mcroxford Posted: 7 April 2017, 2:18 AM  
As an aside. I was interested in Paul's use of a unique symbol to represent areas of 'scattered vegetation' at Riverhead on Sunday. It would be interesting to hear form the runners who went through it too. The main patch is in the northeastern corner.

Show Profile  fraser Posted: 7 April 2017, 5:56 AM  
Ha, I was wondering if the overprint would work when printing that page. Adobe Reader isn't available on Linux, and the Android version I have doesn't have the preview option mentioned.

Interesting uses of the green dots screen.

I note the minimum area/size of the 402 and 404 symbols has reduced quite a bit in the new spec too.

One thing noted in OOM discussion is many of the symbol numbers do not match between the versions which is not ideal.

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 7 April 2017, 6:40 AM  
Worse than not ideal. NZ submitted to IOF on this.

Show Profile  Kenny Posted: 7 April 2017, 7:40 AM  
Fraser, whether or not OCAD CS print control numbers with overprint is up to you. I just checked out OCAD 12 CS and found that the default for control numbers is that a white frame around a number is printed. As with Condes, this is to make numbers more visible on some area colours. If you select the number symbol and turn the white framing off, you will find that overprint effect works on control numbers.

Interestingly, you would think from the terminology 'framing' that the purple number itself would not be affected by the white. However, after some tests it looks like the framing is accomplished by creating the white background to the whole number then extending out by the designated distance. That is an easy way to handle it. I think it should be handled such that if framing is on then it does not affect the overprint effect of the purple. I'm asking OCAD Inc about this and will advise further.
Regards, Ken

Show Profile  Kenny Posted: 7 April 2017, 8:17 AM  
Oops - I thought latest post was at top of page so missed Jim's post after Fraser's.

And oops2 because I forgot to mention that overprint effect for the control number purple in OCAD 12 CS is not on by default. Personally I have not had a need for it but can see it might well be useful in detailed areas.

Adding to Jim's note, you will find that some (mainly newer, smaller) digital print centres do not have overprint effect turned on in their RIP (Raster Image Processor) software. This critical setting is called Composite Overprint in a Fiery brand RIP and similar in Creo and other RIPs. You can see this on page 13 of my guide for digital press operators
Although the actual settings may be different, showing a competent press operator this page should be sufficient for them to locate that setting.

Oops3. Having written that guide some years ago and gradually educated the orienteering community here about overprint in digital, recently I printed maps for an event at a new local print centre without even checking whether overprint effect was working on their printer. Embarassingly, and too late, I found it was not. Fortunately this was an mtbo map so little detail. And I had taken great care in cutting circles and lines and placing numbers. So as far as I know, it was not noticed.

Regards, Ken

Show Profile  The Map Guy Posted: 7 April 2017, 8:27 AM  
I can recall Hans Steinegger telling me it was a difficult thing to implement framing when I suggested he add it back in the OCAD 8 days. He did achieve it.

OCAD now has a team of experts so they may come up with an alternative. Mind you, I can't see why it needs to be altered for control numbers - only the control circles and lines need overprinting (if the circles/lines are not cut to reveal detail below them). Condes is brilliant for chopping pieces out of circles and lines.

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 7 April 2017, 9:35 AM  
A while ago I established that, to get the overprint effect, our print shop had to run the job thru a special queue. Essentially doing what Kenny describes. For rogaines (no specification, yeehaaaa!) I just have a "lower purple" and break a lot of circles. But recently I noticed the overprint effect appearing. Oh yes, we changed our RIP, they said.

So the chickens are coming home to roost, and you won't have any warning until you pick up your maps. Standard OCAD colour sets have overprint switched on for various colours. One of them is blue. If you're not careful, green streams in open land. And if you're lazy, green lakes too.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 7 April 2017, 1:44 PM  
Kenny you legend. It didn't occur to me that the edging effect was probably the reasoning for the lack of overprint effect to the numbering.
I think on most maps the white edging is superior for clarity anyhow. For Barlow road map above we made the numbers bold so to help stand out in all the green. I note in the ISOM2017 it states the numbers to be standard only.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 7 April 2017, 1:55 PM  
Michaelcrox The only feed back I've heard was from the course setter who seemed to like the scattered vegetation dot symbol.
As you can see there is a lot of plant growth on this map with a few different senarios. I arrived at using this option as was having a lot of difficulty in one area as the patches became to tricky and complex to map properly and would have no doubt looked complex on the map also, so like every mapper should I was wanting to generalise somehow, but it didn't qualify for slow run or the walk green as those areas were more consistently green whereas the problem areas were more very patchy walk-ish green areas with lots of white ways through... it seemed like a perfect solution and I didn't have the problem of having to adhere strictly to IOF symbols... close enough though I think???

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