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Show Profile  addison Posted: 5 June 2007, 1:03 PM  
Yeah I have done it before, but the person to talk to is Greg. He is a legend doing it as he has to do it to convert maps for catching features ;-)

Show Profile  Selwyn Posted: 6 June 2007, 5:19 AM  
I presume Michael you have done a right click on the symbol table, - "select" - "unused", right click on any of the many unused symbols, then delete. That gets rid of all the unused symbols including any normal symbols you haven't used yet. At least it leaves a very compact symbol table.

I have had all sorts of trouble importing symbols from other maps. To get just one or a few symbols in, I have created a separate map, deleting all the symbols I don't want, then imported it. Seems to keep it simple.
What's very frustrating is importing another map with it's symbols. Sometimes in OCAD9 I have selected "Import symbols if symbol numbers exist but symbols are different" or "Import symbols if symbol numbers exist but symbols are different" and OCAD has introduced the symbols but refused bring in the map, leaving undefined rubbish on the screen or nothing on the screen, until I use "Import symbols and colors" which of course intoduces a enormous jumble of symbols and colours. The problem may be that the colour defnitions are different in the two maps. I notice that OCAD9 now lists colour numbers in the 100's and 200's if you open a new map. Older versions of OCAD used double digit colour numbers below 100. This might be why some of my imports have insisted on duplicating the colour set.

Does any one know if there a way of going through the list of colours and getting rid of any unused ones?
And a way bringing up a list of symbols with their associated colour numbers, other editing each symbol separately.

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 29 June 2007, 4:54 PM  
There hasn't exactly been a flood of suggestions, which suggests it IS a knotty problem for maps that have had a long history. I'm not sure I like your method of getting rid of everything unused.

BTW I hereby announce that I am using the brown cross (NZ has not hitherto defined a standard use for this) for geocache sites. Normally hidden of course, but I've been successfully geocaching with my paper GPS.

Show Profile  Svend Posted: 30 June 2007, 5:40 AM  
The reason there hasn't been a flood of suggestions regarding unused symbols is most likely because is is not a problem for most mappers.
Most of our(SOC) map files have got many unused symbols, most of them are generally moved down to the bottom of the symbol box out of the way.
They don't interfere in any way with my work so why delete them?
The map I'm working on at the moment has, amongst many other objects, got no pits. Should I happen to discover a pit in a new area of the map then it would be handy to have it in the symbol box
rather than having to import it.
As for unused colours, there may be some colours you think will never be needed,White for example, and some day you will discover that you actually do need a colour you have deleted. Sure, you can
import or create it again but it is much simpler to leave the unused colours where they are.

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 30 June 2007, 9:50 AM  
The problem isn't unused symbols, but symbol proliferation. When you import or paste and the symbols differ in the slightest respect, you end up with additional symbols. I'm grabbing bits out of other files all the time - usu an old file which has the right layout which I gut and then bring into the latest version of the map. Whose symbols have probably "moved on" in many small respects...

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 30 June 2007, 9:55 AM  
I dont think there is a simple way around it but select and change, then checking to make sure nothing is wrong. Then delete the leftover symbol.

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 2 July 2007, 3:14 AM  
I've posted the following on the (US) o-map forum in response to a question about the synthetic paper Tyvek.

"The consensus is that Tyvek is only suitable for offset printing. Pity. I have a special edition of a NZ topo map, printed (offset no doubt) with a topo on both sides covering the Tararua Ranges, a popular tramping area near the capital Wellington. It's at least 20 years old, has been well used. There is no sign of the ink coming off, even on the folds!

"For laser printing there are synthetic papers that work aren't there, but they are quite expensive. Latest on the NZ market is marketed by a digital map provider and I suspect that it is actually something else "rebadged". It's called "Toughprint" and there are versions for inkjet and laser. Not so far used in actual competition. Costs NZ$2.50 a sheet, that's about USD1.50-2.00."

End of quote. I don't as a rule use this forum for commercial purposes and the following is intended as a service to the orienteering community. (a) Toughprint is available from (among others) MAPsport, but only in A4 size. When using it you may need to change colour settings in OCAD, they have been a bit pale in my inkjet tests. (b) MAPsport is running low on A3 70-micron minigrip bags, and is facing the difficult decision on ordering a new manufacturing run (min 7000) when synthetic paper advances might make stocks obsolete overnight:-))

This message was edited by Michael on 2 July 2007, 11:15 AM

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 2 July 2007, 3:41 AM  
Waterproof maps have been used for years in Switzerland, for WOC they had to also use bags as there were complaints before hand. I've experienced these maps and I think a bag is still better, if you get mud on the map it can stain it and make it impossible to read.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 2 July 2007, 3:43 AM  
what I'm waiting for is this digital newspaper technology, thats got to change orienteering, ie get your map downloaded as you start...

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 13 July 2007, 1:25 PM  
In between JWOC postings I found on Google Earth what looks to be some very nice O terrain in Queensland, inland from Mackay. See who can find it. First hint: It's near a bloody big mine!

The discovery was't completely random - we have some friends near there and was just checking out the area for when we might go to next years Oz champs at Marybourough.

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 17 July 2007, 4:57 AM  
Back on the symbol proliferation problem, I'm trying to increase my understanding so I can minimise the problem at source. It may be that just writing down the problem that I perceive will solve it:-)) If you're not a regular OCAD user read no more.

When you IMPORT there's a choice of 3 options. The BOTTOM one "import symbols and colours" seems the worst, if there are any colour definition differences new colours get added to the colour table. Because they are at the bottom the colour-order gets completely stuffed up, fences may be covered by open land etc etc. Don't know why you would want BOTH versions of a colour.

The MIDDLE option "import symbols if symbol numbers exist but symbols are different" is what I have been using. I have been worried about losing any INTENDED differences between the symbol sets, but it leads to proliferation. Maybe it's no big deal, but see below.

The TOP option (and maybe that position suggests it should be the norm) is "import symbols only if symbol number do not exist". This would mean that symbols that were different in the "from" file would adopt the properties in the "to" file. I guess that's OK provided that the "to" file has the preferred symbols and there are no numbering differences. So when I assemble a map from my latest "raw" map and a "layout" (border and legend etc from an old map of the same place) I need to go in the right direction. Otherwise detailed improvements in my symbols will be lost - and I am still finding the odd ISOM2000 change that I have not made.

I'll need to think about the hidden symbols that I use as drawing aids - making sure they have the same symbol numbers. More importantly there were some symbol number changes in ISOM2000 and this could mean that a pit (was 115) becomes a depression, a high tower (was 537) becomes a cairn, etc. The "from" map doesn't need to go back before 2000, only the symbol set, and I see lots of maps that borrowed early Mark Roberts symbol sets. Now I dig into it, there was a real basis for my habit of using the middle option.

But I guess if I trust the "from" file I could be using the top option. BUT which one applies when you use copy-and-paste? I suspect that it's the middle one. You aren't given any choice.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 17 July 2007, 7:24 AM  
The colours are a potential nightmare. There are so many people using so many printers. Last time I used my own HP colour laser I had to change some of the colours and line thicknesses to get as aclose to ISOM 2000 as I could, BUT I made sure when I returned the updated map file that I also reset the colours etc to how I found them. It would be up to a club map printer person who sends maps to a regular digital printer to keep the specifications correct for that particular printing house and make sure a record is kept and things are put back to normal for filing.

Show Profile  Svend Posted: 21 November 2007, 1:01 PM  
Is laser scanning and orthophotos about to replace photogrammetry?

I see the Danish Orienteering Federation has just made a deal with the supliers of laser contours to supply their member clubs with laser scanned contours and orthophotos for mapping purposes.

Cost to clubs were shown and I have converted them to NZ $ using the latest exchange rates:
NZ $ 210 for 0-4 km2 + $ 105 for each additional 4 km2

Where are we at here in NZ regarding laser scanning?
I see it is available here. NZAM are certainly advertising it on their web site but their prices frightens me.

Should the NZOF be taking a leading role in making this new technology available to clubs?

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 21 November 2007, 2:27 PM  
it's already available in the auckland region and being used. check out the auckland sprint champs map on RouteGadget for an example. Selwyn made that map from LIDAR.

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 16 January 2008, 3:04 AM  
Jim Lewis and I have verified that we can get selected layers of topo map into OCAD. The process involves selecting and downloading from NZTopoOnline (LINZ website), in a format called "shape files". Jim has OCAD Professional which can import shape files. This is relevant mainly for rogaine and MTBO mapping.

Chris Forne can also handle shape files and he may like to comment here.

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