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Are elites wusses?

Show Profile  ecurb Posted: 16 May 2003, 9:39 AM  
As one of the organisers of the Southern 6 Day next year I've received the following message

"I've just been perusing the Southern Six Day entry form and discovered much to my horror that nearly every event is at least allegedly going to be the full classic distance, i.e for me 2 hours 10 minutes (if lucky). I think this is going a bit overboard, and am sure all the other elites will agree. I would advise having slightly a couple of shorter days, eg the second day at Naseby and the last day at Overton. No one is going to remember the carnival fondly if they finish off by struggling for a couple of hours through head high grass at Overton."

My question - do all the other elites agree?

Events are on Saturday, Sunday, Tuesday (60min EWT score event) Thursday, Saturday, Sunday.

If you think course lengths should be reduced from the full 100% what should they be?

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 16 May 2003, 11:21 AM  
just keep it at 100%. Elites love the challenge of 105 minutes hard-out for days on end, and everyone will be fit by then anyway.

(just trying to hide the fact I was the original instigator)

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 16 May 2003, 3:05 PM  
In some countries there is a restriction on who may run M and W21E.

We don't have any restriction, but we DO have 21AL, 21AS, 21B and 21C...


Show Profile  Neil K Posted: 16 May 2003, 4:40 PM  
If the maps are suitable for such distances, I think we will enjoy it. I don't think the schedules to hard to do that many Classics given there are rest days.
But I would love to see a short O on the second saturday just for interest sake.

Show Profile  Alistair Posted: 16 May 2003, 7:36 PM  
Before commenting I'd like to know the schedule of days, race-types and lengths?

Show Profile  BillE Posted: 17 May 2003, 4:52 AM  
The original question could maybe be rephrased

"Do you want to scare people away from NZ orienteering forever ??"

I'm surprised you're even considering 105 minute races. Having been to quite a few
multiday events, the only elite races I can remember where the winning time approached
90 minutes were in 2 day events. In all other cases, the winning times for non-short
distance days were usually aimed to be 60-70 mins, max 75 mins.

Most elites coming from overseas might accept a classic distance race on 1 or 2 days,
but that means a 90 minute race, not the crazy NZ style 105 min classic race!

Personally, I thought the Anzac 4 day got it about right.

Show Profile  bendover Posted: 17 May 2003, 11:15 AM  
multi day events are a good chance to innovate - look at how the Elite grade has changed at the O-RIngen in the last few years to incorporate a prologue park race, a short race, and a chasing start on the last day.

why not have variety at the southland 6 day? a mass start loop race on one of the days for instance?

Having 6 days of 105 minute winning times will take all of the competition out the event - by the last couple of days there'll just be huge unassailable gaps between competitors, meaning that most people will be running for the glory of a 'stage win' as opposed to competing for an overall title.

and 105 minute winning time races suck, i agree Bill. i've heard the arguments about 'recreating a WOC classic', but surely if you want to go to WOC you can train for the extra distance yourself. We never have a classic race with a winning time over 90 minutes in the UK, but our top guys can still compete reasonably welll at WOC just by doing the extra miles in training. (or doing the occasional 'long 'o').


Show Profile  HeadHoncho Posted: 17 May 2003, 2:00 PM  
To quote from the NZOF rules:

Multi-day Events shall be designed for 70-90% of the single-day times, depending on the number of days and rest opportunities (this does not apply to A level competitions or Short-O competitions). The percentage does not need to be the same each day, but it shall be stated in advance. (It is recommended that for 2 day events the 1st day is 100% and the 2nd day 90%. For the 3rd and more days without a rest day the distance is 70%. The intent of the rule is that times at the lower end of the range are only required when there are many event days with no rest days)

I don't know whether the 6 day is applying for A event status (if it isn't, then the organisers don't have to abide by NZOF rules), but personally ecurb, 6 classics in a row doesn't sound like a great idea for elites, anyway.

Show Profile  onemanfanclub Posted: 17 May 2003, 2:50 PM  
I'm not an elite, but I am a wuss, so therefore qualified to comment...
I'd personally likely to see all multi day events incorporate a variety of disciplines - for everyone! - rather than classic after classic after classic. Did I see a score event in the plan for this series? good! but why not at least one short race as well? Why not make one day a full length classic, but the remaining 3 days normal multi day length? ..or another short race? or???

Just as an aside, some shorter races (and thus more free time for competitors) might make the event more attractive for sponshorship from local tourist operators?

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 18 May 2003, 2:56 PM  
I stand to be corrected.....

programme : day 1 Naseby
day2 Naseby
day 3 Rest
day4 Mt Ross
day 5 Cuttance Block
day 6 Rest
day 7 Waikaia
day 8 Overton Forest

the plan as it stands is for classics (105minutes) on each of the race days, with the eception of the short-o. My suggestion is for a middle distance course or alternatively a 60 minute classic on day 2, 5 and day 8.

The reason I suggest this is that I would love to run classics on Naseby and Waikaia (New Zealands premier orienteering areas). I also have no desire to run 105min classics 2-days in a row, I feel these classics are physically the equal of a half marathon and how many athletes will run 2 half marathons in two days?

The event on day 5 will not be 105 minutes as the map is not big enough, at most it will be about 90. The terrain can be likened to say Weiti (maybe not quite as good), and frankly there is no real point in doing a long race on it, it would be boring. This applies to the South Island Champs in November as well. I talked to the controller today and the feeling is 90 is enough.

Likewise with the last day, having just run a gruelling classic at Waikaia, doing the same at Overton does not appeal. This map is extremely well suited for a quality 60 minute course and anything longer will see gratuitous climb or head high grass. I hope the organisers make the right decisons to make the carnival enjoyable.

The issue of whether classics should be 105 is one that needs to be seriously considered.

Show Profile  HeadHoncho Posted: 19 May 2003, 8:28 AM  
The issue regarding M (and W) 21E winning times has been debated and reviewed almost as many times as the timing of the Nationals...

From memory (and I stand to be corrected) 105 min EWT was brought in for the Nationals only and I am unclear as to how it came about for all A grade events. However I do recall clearly that with National/Provincial weekends, there was a trade off as the same time the EWT was increased for classics, the number of short O races for elites was "legislated" to one only, even if the host club was holding 2 races for all other grades. So major events for M21E's went from 90 + two 25's (140 total) to 105 + one 30 (135 total).

The 105 EWT should apply for 5 events in a year - Nationals and 4 provincial championships. Despite some misgivings that it is too long, there was a significant body of opinion from within the National Squad at the time that a 90 EWT was as useful as tits on a bull for those elites who have international aspirations. For those elites who do not have international aspirations and who feel 105 EWT is too long for them to cope, there is the option of running M21AL at these events.

Back to the Southern 6 Day - if the host club(s) are putting on 6 classics with 105 EWT, then it is not a problem with the rules, it is a problem with the hosts and you should take it up with them. I'm not sure if the event is A status, and if it is, the rules for multi-day events should apply which at the very least should reduce the length of the second day of events held during the weekends. If it is not A status, then the rules cannot dictate to the hosts the length of courses and if you people in eliteland feel its a dumb idea, then make your feelings known to the host club(s).

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 19 May 2003, 9:22 AM  
Are you a bit out of touch Crawford?

That is exactly what I did, and hence the host started this thread asking for elites opinions.

The only person talking about rules is yourself, I deliberately refrained from comment

Get some sleep buddy.

Edited by - jamie on 19/05/2003 10:24:38

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 19 May 2003, 10:09 AM  
Headhoncho wrote...

> From memory (and I stand to be corrected) 105 min EWT was brought in for the Nationals only and I am unclear as to how it came about for all A grade events.

From memory (and I stand to be corrected) the NZOF Council asked the Technical Committee to raise the winning time targets for M and W21E in the rules. The TC drafted the wording changes, and they went back to the council for formal ratification. If there was a misunderstanding about what it intended, the council had plenty of opportunity to catch it.

Just ask if you would like to know where to find the NZOF Council minutes or the record of the NZOF rule changes, Headhoncho:-))

Michael Wood, former TC Convenor

Show Profile  HeadHoncho Posted: 19 May 2003, 10:58 AM  

My posting in the main was replying to your last comment:

The issue of whether classics should be 105 is one that needs to be seriously considered

I took that to mean you (as others have) were questioning whether classics should be 105 min, which is raising an issue with the rules. Perhaps you need some sleep as well.

Sorry Michael, my mistake.

Show Profile  Chris Forne Posted: 19 May 2003, 11:38 AM  
Classics are the best, and a good map deserves nothing less.
Sure it's a bit boring running around on open farm land for this long, but in cool terrain
it's just too much fun.
As for variety, lets have an extra long event at Naseby - 2 1/2 - 3hr winning time
on the first day and a short 50 - 60min the next.
I'll be extremely dissapointed if I'm out for much less than 3hrs on the first day.

All the rest should be standard classics (105min) except Mt Ross.
It would be a shame to spend any less time on such exciting looking maps.


Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 19 May 2003, 12:34 PM  
I've had plenty of sleep, I specialise in sleep and eating.

Chris, why don't we instead of flags have cryptic clues.

Or lets just call it a mountain marathon week.

Get ready to be disappointed.

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