 Alistair
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Posted: 10 June 2003, 12:12 PM
Yes Jamie, I must be on another planet - don't know which one you're on though? On my planet people aren't afraid to say what they think - thought you lived here too? This is a forum after all.
Mark - since when have I cared about getting my arse kicked?
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fancy_michael
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Posted: 10 June 2003, 5:57 PM
Simon (and the others that want to run a "short" course)... if you want a shorter course -ENTER a shorter course!!
I assume that not ALL of the 6 days will be super series events... so Al, if you won't come to the carnival unless there's a shorter course... you should read the entry form and see that there will be more than just Course 1 offered.
If enough elites enter course 3... you'll get your own "elite" competition started to boot!
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HeadHoncho
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Posted: 10 June 2003, 11:16 PM
C'mon Michael - you're talking about elites here and their egos. Elites running other than Course 1? Dream on!!!! Remember the title to this thread!
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Alistair
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Posted: 11 June 2003, 1:59 AM
You're right - I'm an old man now - can run with the geriatrics - hey, I might even win!
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Jamie
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Posted: 11 June 2003, 3:25 AM
I wouldn't take too much for granted Alistair, theres some pretty handy M35's around.
But you would have a good chance
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addison
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Posted: 11 June 2003, 8:01 AM
Michael. The opinion that you have put forward, is that every race should be full, or fullish, length. You must be fucking joking.
If what you say is true about those who want a shorter run to run a shorter course, why the fuck do we have a Short O' at Nationals? Why have we had Sprint O's. Grow up and hit the fucking real world.
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ecurb
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Posted: 11 June 2003, 8:22 AM
Well it looks like some people are pleased and some aren't. Just like in the real world.
Jamie, I recommended 70 mins not 75 mins, or is that the time you expect to take :-)
We have to make allowance for everybody and I'm not sure overseas elites want to come here for a short 20 - 30 min sprint race on one of the days. I could be wrong, it has happened even though I hate to admit it!
Greg, (and any others). If you are that determined that a short race is needed for your elite series why not persuade the organiser of your elite series and your fellow orienteers to run 21AS on one day as a nominated series grade and day. That way other eliute runners who want a longer run can have one
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addison
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Posted: 11 June 2003, 8:39 AM
I dont think they will come for 5 identical types of races with limited variation either. If you did want to make a Sprint race worth it, perhaps having two Short Races, with a chasing start in the afternoon?
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Neil K
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Posted: 11 June 2003, 8:50 AM
Why do we run the elite grade?
Competition. The best thing about a major carnival is Regular good competition. Somebody suggested that we should be changing grades and courses during the carnival to suit our whim. This would ruin the competition and rivalry that arises from racing the same people every day. This would disrupt the use of the events as super series. This would distort any series points for both elite grades and the shorter courses. It would be nice if we could all agree to have the grade compete on the same course everyday.
Bruce, you say some are happy, some are not. I would love if you could do a head count and tell me who is happy and wouldn't prefer one short. My count comes to zero.
Regards
Neil
Edited by - Neil K on 11/06/2003 16:53:26
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Greg
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Posted: 11 June 2003, 10:44 AM
Out of all the international people that have posted on here bruce 100% of them agree to shorter courses what does that tell ya.
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Alistair
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Posted: 11 June 2003, 12:16 PM
Well said Neil - Elite wusses don't want to change grades in the middle of the week - that's what old men like me do (to avoid the 105min races...) :-P
BRUCE - you still didn't answer my question! (why the long race before the shorter one? - have you ever heard of glycogen depletion?)
And yes - I think a short race (or two on one day?) - or maybe a 45min one would be a nice idea. I would think that anyone travelling from overseas would would think that one short day out of six would be reasonable if not great!
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ecurb
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Posted: 12 June 2003, 1:48 AM
Alistair - Long races are before the short races because they are on the best maps.
We could carry on here for ages but just a few points
1 On Jamie's request we have discussed race lengths for elite men and modified our thinking almost in line with what Jamie proposed and have reduced the 95 mins to 70 mins (instead of 60 mins as Jamie proposed). I said that race length should be more than W21E and Greg replied with a comment that I assume is tongue in cheek because I would be saddened for the future of elite mens orienteering if all elite men agree with him that men run harder than the women
2 Not many other events go to the trouble of conferring with M21E that I can remember. Most entry forms don't even say what lengths elites will run.
3 Some have said that the Anzac 4 day was about right. The results book says that they were aiming for 74 - 94 minutes. Obviously they were on the light side of what they were aiming for. Did that stop you entering.
4 Without intending to being cruel and nasty the main proponents for very short races didn't do that well at the Nationals. I'm sorry to be rude but I would also value the opinion of those such as Rob J, Carsten, Darren, Mark
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Jamie
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Posted: 12 June 2003, 4:29 AM
yeah 200...only beaten by Headhoncho and his psyeudonyms (how is that spelt?)
some people still think that what is written on this forum is gospel and a complete exercise of direct democracy..whats with you guys...Simon...Greg...how about you organise a carnival this summer...and if you say no I'm a serious elite I have to compete...well then at least train for it.
Bruce, who along with Sheryl, has basically dreamed up this carnival and driven it by themselves, came to us, amazingly he actually listened to us..are we worthy, and the length of the events were reduced...he also suggested, which suggests that he doesn't mind, that elites after conferring with super series management run a shorter course on one of the days...maybe this will happen. But what day...I would be gutted to have a shirt day on Naseby you're having way to much fun to get tired on that map anyway.
Jamie
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onemanfanclub
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Posted: 12 June 2003, 5:06 AM
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Edited by - mark on 12/06/2003 14:06:43
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mark
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Posted: 12 June 2003, 6:01 AM
Whoops.
Here's what Nic wrote:
Bruce: While I agree with what has just appeared from Jamie in terms of everyone should be thankful that you're making one hell of an effort to prove you don't need an APOC, "Oceania" champs or World Masters to have a decent summer series, I still have one simple question I'd like to see answered:
Do you believe that the Classic discipline is the only valid form of orienteering?
The evidence: (1) a proposed multi day race that apart from a score event consists of 5 classics; (2) after lots of debate most of the classics get shortened to typical multi-day length, but still no short course or sprint races when (not that I know the maps that well) some of the terrain would be more suitable for fast technical racing than endurance+route choice racing; (3) the assertion that the arguments against long races have been coming from people who didn't do well at nationals. By that do you mean Jamie Stewart (4th in sprint, 2nd or 3rd kiwi depending on Andreas's status, and nearly won but for one mistake - the essence of sprint orienteering) or Bill Edwards (4th in short, 5th in classic) or Stu Barr, who was sick and should not even have been running that week? Then there's Al who won a world cup on a course that made this year's classic champs look like a tame liddle bunny wabbit - if he's suggesting a need to mix up the race formats a bit, then who wouldn't?
Why is it that most of us only ever get to run specialist short or sprint courses at national (and if we're lucky, regional) champs, when each is recognised as a different discipline?
But anyway, (honestly) thanks for making the effort to make the event happen.
Oh and Jamie, I feel so honoured to have been there when the 200 rolled round! (who's next?)
Edited by - mark on 12/06/2003 14:13:52
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