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2008 Super Series

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 18 May 2007, 5:16 PM  
ps Simon although I only have 627 posts, add in my previous user name and i reckon I'd have ya.

Show Profile  SimonB Posted: 18 May 2007, 5:36 PM  
greg doesnt wear a g-string, he goes commando...

Show Profile  onemanfanclub Posted: 19 May 2007, 10:40 AM  
I think we've all worked out that we're having 2 discussions here, one about the IDEAL superseries timetable and one about the coming season.

As far as the ideal goes, I think Martin's formula for geographical spread looks pretty good, and 5 rounds is a good balance between enough races to be a workable series and not too many races. Don't know if there's a need to have an extra round if both "neutral" rounds were in the same island, but certainly if they're in the same region. Or there could be other fiddles that wouldn't lengthen the series. But it all comes down to what events are available.

Still on the ideal, I'm always one to look for a compromise between 2 vehemently opposed points of view. Dropping spring rounds, but having 5 rounds spread between say January and April/May might be as close as we can get to appeasing both the spread-out-peak-for-each-round-sunnis and the condense-race-every-week-as-a-single-peak-shiites. Such a format could naturally evolve into a few "mini-peaks" ie one big round by itself, then 2 weekends in March just a week or 2 apart, then nationals and a final round no more than 2 weeks after. A begrudging peace will reign, and us couldn't-care-less-so-long-as-we-can-pretend-everybody's-happy-sufis can get back to our pipes and dance parties... But again it all comes down to the events that are available, BUT if we ever agree on something, then that gives the HP manager something to take to the NZOF/clubs and say this is what WE want when major events are scheduled.

Show Profile  onemanfanclub Posted: 19 May 2007, 11:04 AM  
On the subject of this coming season, I think we have to go with what's available so I'll stick to my original post if I remember it right. Greg, I agree that the 07 series felt a bit slack, but the length was just one contributing factor (especially given that all other series bar the 1st MJW run one were the same length, or longer finishing at QB weekend). Other contributing factors: the location of the 2 Southern rounds was too isolated (or perhaps just percieved to be in Otago's case) for a normal weekend; Arguably the 5 best NZ orienteers were either no-shows or didn't have enough finishes to really influence overall results (I'm not bagging them, I know there were good reasons in at least some cases); Travel costs were higher, especially with the first 2 rounds confirmed late in the picture; Publicity of the series was lower profile than previously (I'm not bagging Carsten, it's just the strengths he brings to HP are different to what MJW and Clem did).

Much of that is out of our control, and I hope it's just unusual coincidence that it all affected the same season...

(One last point of confusing semantics for Paul's benefit: most of the CDOA clubs fall into the Northern region, not Central, as far as the SS is concerned. To translate into terms that all good NZers understand, Northern = Blues+Chiefs, Central = Hurricanes, Southern = Crusaders+Highlanders)

Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 19 May 2007, 12:22 PM  
Defending Carsten even if you weren't bagging him...
I agree the superseries publicity wasn't as good as in MJW days but
there was a lot more written in post race reports on the webpage,
and one or two prerace reports, then the last year or so. At least
whenever I tried to look it up from Sweden I couldn't find anything save a few lines here and there. At least this year there were reports even if they weren't as quick as MJW. The results were also up at almost every round until the last ones but not having a MJW trailer makes it less obvious as to where they are.

I also would like to know by what criteria Greg is judging that the last supereries didn't work. Numbers weren't actually that bad and the main men missing wouldn't have come whatever the format was (ie Darren/Karl/Chris) In the Otago round there was about the same participation percentage in the men as in any other round outside Nationals and Waitangi weekend. In the women Rach/Reb aren't orienteering much/at all at the moment and again wouldn't have been there regardless of format. Other notable names missing were Tan, from many rounds, and Amber from SI rounds. Amber was at most NI rounds and probably would have been all if she hadn't got injured. Tan was beaten at several of the rounds she did do and so was Amber so I don't think there's many cases where you could definitely say the person who won wouldn't have won if others had been there. Eg Lizzie and Tineke's wins in the last round were well deserved.

Participation rates are one criteria and probably the main one to aim for. Another is how much the races help to prepare people for international competition. Pretty subjective but a worthy aim for the superseries.

It would good to know what Greg's "successful" superseries criteria are so we can judge when we have one. On second thoughts though actually Greg, you'd be better to use your time and energy getting yourself into good O shape for QB3 and then getting us some good results at WOC.

Show Profile  ole codger Posted: 19 May 2007, 3:50 PM  
Thanks for the posted 16th comments Simon. (Simon for President The reality of this thread is that most of the comments centre about self preference for format and dates for this coming years super series dates with no thought for the future and other orienteers outside elites; and of course bagging each other .
What I would like to see you all discuss amongst your brillant selfs is a constructive season that is best for NZ Orienteering!!, taking in all aspects of orienteering.
How would you plan a season that takes in club promotion, coaching, school events, O'Y's, high competition season inclusive with Super series, timing of the Nationals, taking in account events like WOC ,Jwoc,. Your season should not be a one off but on a permanent basis so competitors and clubs can plan ahead. It should be balanced, take in the needs of other clubs (i.e summer fire risk in the north, spring lambing in HB, winter chill factor in the south etc). Your HCS should be scheduled to prepare elite and juniors for hard international competition and be interesting and challenging for mainstream orienteers. Another factor to take in is work load on organizers. Can your season double up on events i.e. secondary school competition with mainstream o'events, area champs become part of HCS. It should be interesting for all orienteers to find it worthwhile to travel and to feel that they have got their money's worth.
In fact this is a big ask, are you up to it? or do you think that it is a task for a Think Tank Committee?. The Auckland Clubs are at the moment in the process of formulating a questionaire to be put to all clubs (via the NZOF)for their opinions on how they see a constructive season. As not to many Elites actually attend club meetings, THIS IS A GOOD CHANCE to put your views forward. NZOF delegates and officers do browse Maptalk.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 19 May 2007, 4:59 PM  
so who are the self interested ones Wayne? Jenni? Greg? Me?

Could it just be that we have different opinions?

We have been through this before and ended up with a spring/autumn occasionally summer sounds like we will now have to waste a whole lot more time on it again. Why don't the akld clubs focus there time on making maps and attracting juniors to their clubs...

I think all the questions that you ask in your post (and more)are already answered in this thread.

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 19 May 2007, 6:20 PM  
Jenni are you saying that the just finished SS was a success and that I'm not putting in an effort to be in good shape at Queens B'day? If so that proves how much of a clue you have on reality - not a fucken drop, or do you want me to spend my time doing washing and sitting around talking about my feelings like the Southerly members seem to focus on?

The last SS format didn't work, dont let the fact that Waitangi was awesome (if I do say so myself) and that Nationals was included cloud that fact, the numbers at the rest of events were crap, when a person decides not to protest about a control in the wrong place because their grade is solely made up of their own team and would mean that the team would miss out on the 4 top placing points proves how much of a joke it was.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results"

Show Profile  James Posted: 21 May 2007, 10:10 AM  
So the most recent superseries has been deemed as 'unsuccessful'. But the previous series have been a success (more or less), but those previous rounds had the same format. So was the format of events to blame for the poor turnout? or perhaps more along the lines of what jenni has suggested and a few of our top elites (albiet most of the top elites) had other things to do/ are not particularly interested at the moment?

Even if the season was to be condensed into january-april, whos gonna be able to 'peak' for 3-4months? Yes you can build up to 'peak' for nationals, with a good build up of major events, but with the proposed 07/08 season, it appears you can achieve this anyway!

I know that we have the possibilty of funding for travel to SS events, but im sure you will all agree, that even with funding, going away for the weekend will always cost money above a normal weekend training/competing at home.

Personally, if the season was to be condensed to say Jan-april, there is no way that i could attend all the rounds. Not only is the cost of going away every few weeks a problem, but its the fact that i would be away from work every few weeks and be missing out on income. My part time job pays for my orienteering addiction, but a condensed season would mean i couldnt attend all events. And could you imagine trying to hold down a part time job and asking for time off every 2nd weekend? I cant think of any employer that would go along with that! I know that some other school/uni students dont have the need to work partime, but for those of us that dont have a lot of money, we need to work in order to afford orienteering!!

And looking at the people who do attend the SS, many are school/uni students, so potentially limiting the events they attend will have detremental effects on numbers. Not all of us get support from mummy and daddy.

I still like the 1st program proposed by carsten.
6 rounds, 2 in each region, top quality major events in cool terrain.
It's a series of events, not a championship, so you dont need to peak for every event. I like the different aspect compared to a championship becasue it provides motivation to keep training for a good portion of the year. Besides, orienteering is such a sport that the best orienteers can still win or podium even when they arent in their best shape, and often the best orienteers shine through regardless of their fitness.

Show Profile  addison Posted: 21 May 2007, 12:31 PM  
I know of heaps of employers who would prefer you to have a tight season where they know it is coming and can take measures to mitigate effects, rather than having a long period of irregular events and irregular interuptions. All it would mean is 9 months of commitment and 3 months of sporting commitment because of the super series.

Basically James the best thing for your work would be to have a fixed season period each year with a 90% set routine year in year out, so that when you go for a job you can tell them what the deal is and then you dont need to complain every year for the same reason

This message was edited by Simon Addison on 21 May 2007, 12:31 PM

Show Profile  James Posted: 21 May 2007, 12:40 PM  
Simon, my point is if the season went over 3months (say every second weekend), i would not have any income and would not be able to afford to pay bills/rent during the 3month competition season, let alone attend orienteering events.

My employers would much rather find someone to cover my shifts once a month, than not have an employee for 1/4 of the year. Because then they would need to employee another staff member for that 3month period. Then what happens when i return from competition season? The boss fires the new employee because james is back? No, they new employee stays on the payroll, and it becomes a battle to get hours at work. The employer then gives hours to staff that show availablity (which i cannot do to the same extent) and i am left with very few hours and struggle to save money to attend future events.

Having been in charge of managing and rostering staff for 3 different companies, i know that it would be much easier to cover one shift every so often, than try and find a new/ temporary 3month employee.

Show Profile  SimonB Posted: 21 May 2007, 2:28 PM  
dont you get stuydent loan?

Show Profile  addison Posted: 21 May 2007, 3:38 PM  
I understand what you are trying to say.

However your first point isn't really that valid. If you are having the same number of weekends off per year, then that means you still have the same amount of weekends available for work. It just means your income is derived from a defined period of which you earn more money than you currently do with the current system, then you have a period of limited or no pay. It just becomes a thing of budgeting and no spending the extra few dollars on an extra hair dye!

But again I see your point. However you do need to also remember it depends on what sort of business you are involved in as well as how well you get on with the people that matter. For every example you give I could give double saying the opposite, so basically the moral of the story is no season is ideal for everyone.

Basically you can't bitch and moan about money too much, because there are those out there that don't get the funding that is on offer. There are also some out there who are studying that dont get scholarships. Noones situation is the same, as you point out, so we cannot compare apples with pears.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 21 May 2007, 4:19 PM  
Talk about running around in circles not finding a control point!

If we take an overall look at some of the issues coming to light maybe some bright spark might come up with a compremise that no one freaks out at!
1. Lots of people find Auckland Champs a bit early to fit various plans
2. Final SS not being at Nationals seems to be anti-climax and wasted potential
3. Big lull in events in December/January
4. NZSS event could be involved with high profile O-event to give students some goals
5. Need a build up for WOC/JWOC
6. A very tightly compressed SS creates travel, work, injury, other sport and commitment problems
7. A very spread out SS looses momentum and purpose, unless you don't try to read anything more in to it other than an overall OY series for the elite.

So really a medium density series would fit most easily for most people.
Rather than going for less events, could it be that an extra one was needed in the Dec or Jan time? Many other orienteers also miss not having a decent event in the later part of the year.
As far as using the SS as a build up the only way that would work is if it was from Jan - May as Rob C has stated, which brings us back to similarites to Waynes proposal.
Purhaps if this is not the way to go because people prefer Carstens proposal then maybe what's needed to help with a lead up to WOC/JWOC is a seperate high pressure set of events in the couple of months prior. Could these competitions be held at some of the best OY's to save on workload, again, say one in each region with travel costs helped only to the representatives chosen.

The SS doesn't necessarily have to end at the Nationals, however for it's profile to shine it should be a popular event at least, so the O-pubic can experience the excitment and importance of the Elite super series finals. A great comentator could make this quite interesting and informative.

Surely the NZ schools event SHOULD be held at a major NZ O-event, pick a suitably timed one and go for it.

Show Profile  Neil K Posted: 21 May 2007, 6:14 PM  
Last years super series a success or failure?

Well lets not get to extreme on our labels aye. It was definatly down on its potential and could do better at motivating the 2nd tier of elites (one of the key goals of the super series is to boost internal depth). It is probable that each year has been less than perfect so saying that every other year was a success and last year was a faliure.

How do I measure this objectively? One dissapointing statistic when you analyse the results is looking at how many athletes score well not because they have raced well consistently but simply because they have raced more than others. The format from last year was "Best 17 out of 21" Only three people in the entire series had more than 17 results. They were 1st, 2nd and 1st. I missed 13 events and still came seventh because most people missed even more. This is not a successful format to find a consistent orienteer. For the majority the overall series is not reflecting individual results.

We can ask for why elites aren't going and get piss weak excuses like, washing(from people that can afford a house keeper) and part-time jobs (from students with scholorships who pop over to australia alot). I am not saying there reasons aren't valid...but I believe they aren't that big a problem should the athlete really really want to do the super series.

So it leads us to ask why then do elites seem to care and make an effort to go to super series events. I would suggest a: good events b: Good competition at each event. c: travel funding d: teams competition.

What else are we really missing? To me we need most of the sqaud attending enough events so that individuals performances determine all the top ten results for the series...not thier attendance rate.

The teams competition is a good one when your team is functioning well and are still in the hunt to win.

The teams competition aptmosphere didn't seem that good in Central and Northern this year. And and example of the effect this has is when no other girls turned up to Otago champs except southerly storm,
No protest was made over a wrong control simply so southerly storm could get the points regardless of a fair race.

So after that little analysis. My suggestion would be for less events so that its more realistic that people can target the events and make them a priority...(over washing and drinking). That they are at the best events (eg best maps, best course setters).

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