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2008 Super Series

Show Profile  Neil K Posted: 15 May 2007, 10:14 AM  
I'm in favour of super series having less rounds and being more compressed. I really struggled to get into it this year after missing a couple of events due to clashes. I'm one of the biggest supporters of the super series yet it struggled to keep my attention when it dragged on so long. I don't agree with having one super series event a month. I need more of a season. Reality is that most top orienteers in NZ do other sports aswell, if they are given a season for O than they can do the other sports without losing their O motivation. When I talk about season I'm not reffering to club level....lets face it they will do whats best for them, super series needs to do whats best for elites.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 15 May 2007, 1:24 PM  
Hilda Prince is just waiting to bust it out.

While compression is good, the most important thing for the superseries is that it is held on the best and most challenging areas at events that are well supprted by the general orienteering public.

Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 15 May 2007, 9:46 PM  
Just on C's computer for a minute. I don't mind if the season/superseries starts in January or October but I couldn't handle traveling away to events every second weekend. It's exhausting, it takes us a week to catch up on washing, other jobs, work that spills over into non-work hours. If events were every two weeks, I wouldn't have had time to reflect on the event before the next one was on me, let alone book tickets, accommodation, entries etc etc. When we discussed it at training last weekend that seemed to be a common feeling. I don't mind oing every weekend, in fact I love it, did it loads when we lived in Sweden. But then it was a matter of driving around an hour to the events, home again by early afternoon. I do mind flying or driving 4+ hours each way somewhere every second weekend and being away for the whole weekend.

Comparing to hockey, I played every weekend but that was always at home. When we had rep games that was something like a tournament or a few away games. Not every two weeks for 12 weeks! Yes they do that for Super14 but rugby's all they do, they're professionals... Now if the only thing I was doing was orienteering it might be different. Nowdays I know the hockey season goes pretty much all year around broken into normal season, then summer hockey or veterans, preseason, etc

We also want to go to our local events as well, so every three - four weeks, give us something like a week to do a Superseries event,a weekend to do O here and a weekend to something else, either some running races or just fix our house! In our case we tend to mix the sports we do in parallel, not just do a season when we run and a season when orienteer. So if the superseries event were closer together we would end up to be more likley to be missing them to do one of our favourite mountain running events.

Nic, is the attrition rate of women that much worse then men. When I read your comment I was surprised thinking that our top female had been to every WOC, bar one for nearly 20 years now. But I do remember now that you have a soft spot for Rach and that's what you're talking about. (Recently missing in action Rach, Reb, Lisa F compared to Darren, Jason M, Stu Barr...) More the problem is the low number of women in the first place. But it's looking up, and more so than it ever has before, our current juniors seem to have more depth in women than men. There's 10 or more aged 16-20 who could be getting us top 20 places at WOC in the next 10 years which is really exciting. After that as Rob mentioned there is Kate Cory-Wright coming before you have to wait for Kaia Jørgensen...

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 16 May 2007, 12:37 PM  
Watch this space for Owen Ireland in 2020

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 16 May 2007, 7:35 PM  
Your reason is to catch up on washing????

I know lets go to some potential sponsors and say here is our premiere elite competition - 1 event a month, so that it gives our athletes a chance to catch up on washing, and partake in other leisure activities.

Are we not trying to become/look like a more professional sport?

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 16 May 2007, 7:41 PM  
I don't think we are trying to become/look like a professional sport...just a really onto it amateur one

Show Profile  addison Posted: 16 May 2007, 8:05 PM  
Look at any succesful sports series out there. How would the Super 14 work if it was held only once a Month for the whole Year?

So Jamie says a really onto it amateur one. Wouldn't a really onto amateur one follow in the footsteps of professional sports, learn from them instead of living in the dark ages?

Wayne raises some good points and I believe Wayne is working hard for something that we might not see eventuate. I have warmed to his proposals as he has spent a good amount of time refining them and thinking logically about them. He has put the ideas out there that he thinks will be benefical for the sport, not for his own personal gain. Good on you Wayne. The Super Series would work great in a compact series. Its easier to get sponsors, coverage etc as well as orienteerings interest.

700 Posts, Greg you can kiss my ass on that one.

Show Profile  onemanfanclub Posted: 16 May 2007, 10:43 PM  
If we're going to try to compare the superseries of an individual sport with rugby, I think the world 7s series is a better analogy than the super 14. The super 14 is one tournament leading to one result. While each match is a result in itself, each "round" is simply an artefact of there being a certain number of matches to be played and every team can only play once a week (ie, there's no prizes awarded each week for the team that's added most to their points). There are matches every week to keep the tournament rolling along.

The world 7s has a series result but also each tournament is a competition in it's own right. Each has its own build-up and while it could certainly be compressed in the period between 1st and last round, there's no need to have a round every week to keep the competition rolling, and to do so would perhaps loose the individual identity of each tournament.

An even more logical comparison would be with another individual (or team, where a team result is simply a sum of individual performances) series. Is the triathlon world cup or the women's road cycling series that's had a round in Wellington a couple of times professional enough to aspire to? Can't say for sure what their structure is, but I'm sure it's not races every week for the length of competition (maybe bursts of a couple of weeks of races every week). Looks professional enough for their sponsors.

Besides, someone once suggested Persil or the likes was the obvious Superseries sponsor based on the condition our race gear is in after a full-on weekend, so maybe having a month off between races to do the washing is exactly the message we want to get out there ;-)

Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 18 May 2007, 3:39 PM  
1. Yes we can portray to anyone that cares that we are real people with real jobs who are also competing at an elite level (to do this we get up at 6am in the morning to train etc etc) What they should judge us on is our results, the fact that we can win mountain running races and o races and have serious jobs/study should be more impressive than if we didn't have any work/study.

2. Let us consider now the events that are on offer for next year's superseries (not what we would like clubs to do in an ideal world - that we can also discuss because PAPO has asked us when would you like us to put on SI champs) Say we want something like 6 rounds - 2 in each region. Would you rather the superseries ran on the major events that are currently in the programme, meaning it goes from October-Apr/Jun OR Would you rather it went from Feb-Apr/June probably meaning we would use OYs that are scheduled and ask clubs if they could put on some extra sprint race etc on the Saturday?

My answer is I would rather the former as
a) clubs usually select their best terrain for their championships so these are the terrains I would most like to go to
b) it is better for the superseries profile in the NZ O community for us to be running at events like the regional champs where there are more people participating
c)the events are more likely to feel like "big" events and so get us closer to dress rehearsals

3. Does my answer to 2 mean we are sabotaging the preparation of our WOC team? I don't think so, in fact I think it makes it easier for people to participate for reasons outlined in my earlier post. And I don't think the superseries will ever (or should ever) work like a "tournament" especially a very long one like some advocate. Along the same lines as Nic suggests, comparing to sevens, I would compare it to the old O World Cup series. This was (and still is in a bit different format) a series of events spread over the year (we don't want a year for the superseries though although that's more like what the Danish Trimtex Cup equivalent is) where the winner is decided as the person who has performed most consistantly over the series. By using training and local clube events you can orienteer weekly for periods leading up to each round of the superseries. I would never think you would be trying to hold some peak over the whole a superseries unless it was maybe condensed to 4 weeks long. I don't see the point of this anyway. The pinnacle event we're aiming for is WOC - this involves producing results, not every weekend for four weeks but in a one week period. Our superseries should be about producing results on particular weekends (or preferably long weekends). In between we figure out went well and what went wrong and improve on it for the next time.

My vote is for
Wellington/CD Champs (Hawkes Bay)
South Island Champs (Nelson)
Waitangi several days
South Island Champs
+ one more perhaps either between Waitangi and Nationals or after SI champs. The reason would maybe to give the Auckland area a round but seeing Waitangi is "Northerners" region and it would presumably involve more events then it's probably OK weight between the regions with just the 5 rounds.

Can anyone make concerete suggestions for events to put in/leave out to make the superseries for the way they're voting for it. Carsten needs to finalise what the series is soon so he can start making grant applications so that we can have funding that will help us all to get to the rounds wherever and whenever they may be.

Simon, you might have 700 posts but I surely have the most words... But divided by length of time since first post (word rate) Paul I must be leading.

PS Chris is making his orienteering comeback this Sunday at Godley Head - check the PAPO homepage next week to see if he can beat Carsten, Rob J or Michael S... Aaron's planning

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 18 May 2007, 4:00 PM  
Is keeping the same format going to work? It didn't this year. I feel like its time to try something else rather than just take the option where you can get your washing done, but as I stated way back there is nothing on the calendar and I do agree we should be trying to run at the big events, hence the problem.

At this stage I cant really see anything better than the proposed but that doesn't mean I like it, which means the same thing will happen as it did this year (for me anyway) where I will go to the events regardless cause I like orienteering, but I wont be targeting them to run extremely well at, which takes away the purpose of having an elite series to compete hard against each other in.

Do you really think someone sponsoring someone for a chosen reason (eg sport) really gives a toss if they have a job or study or their washing is done, no they want to see their final results.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 18 May 2007, 4:21 PM  
Thanks for that Jenni, just to keep up appearances I will put another 2 cents worth in...
As an outsider who has nothing to do with the SS it does look a bit odd that the South Island gets two rounds, Central region gets three, and Northern gets ziltch. I would class Waitangi in central north Island as the Central region. Doesn't anyone like Woodhill any more? Is the timing of the whole Auckland OY series ending with the Auckland championships in Sept a real problem. (Maybe too early?)

PS. It only takes Greg 30 seconds to wash his G-string, and seeing Ross at Nationals Middle distance he too probably doesn't need much time allotted to washing!

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 18 May 2007, 4:22 PM  
I'd like to see Waitangi not being named a northern region 'home' event. instead have it as a neutral event for reasons stated earlier.

In my view the superseries should work around planned events, and we shouldn't be approaching clubs to put on events especially.

As an annual format could consist:

NZ Champs
A Major Summer event

Northern Area event
Central Area event
Southern Area event

plus: if NZ Champs and Summer Event are in the same island then an additional round in the other island

or something similar, but a generic formula which can be used each year. We know how many games are in the Super 14, how many races are in the Triathlon world cup, # of rounds in the PGA, how many rounds do we want in the superseries?

From there:
!. It's then a matter of deciding (on a year-by-year basis) what suitable events fall into each category

2. Formulating all the possible combinations that form a season.

3. Work out the best superseries calendar based on timing constraints - the best way would probably be to work out when the series should finish and work back from there constructing the superseries season.

Of course there are constraints about how close together events are (there will be minimum and maximum bounds)

This is a simplified formulation of how they do sports scheduling using operations research - the branch of engineering i'm in. It's used to do the major league games in USA and a whole lot of other sports.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 18 May 2007, 4:50 PM  
Hey I still like my original do probably all youse like repeated, with one variation

1) Akld Champs...this is a week before the events assoc with Oceania start and I plan to be peaking!

2) Wellington Champs (labour weekend), giving one week break after Oceania...these three events together are an awesome little elite competition unti

3) Waitangi Weekend, choice

4) SI Champs..Jenni when do we want it...HERE! between Waitangi and Nationals (march sometime)

5) Nationals, tense superseries finish at nationals...


I find all this talk about ratio of events meaningless, lets just make it approx fair and use the best events. As expressed earlier if we all cooperate its cheaper for an aklder to compete in chch, than anyone to compete in Waikaia....etc

Show Profile  addison Posted: 18 May 2007, 4:57 PM  
I agree with Greg in the fact that we should go for a very tight circuit of events in an ideal world and this is something we should build towards. Have a bit of a strategic plan for the superseries, instead of the annual fuss when its all too late.

But in practicality for the next series I think Jamie has a pretty good plan of attack.

Show Profile  addison Posted: 18 May 2007, 4:58 PM  
p.s. - sometimes you post a lot of shit jenni

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