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Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 4 May 2012, 11:31 PM  
@nh (re MN lines): thankyou that's very handy Nick

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 5 May 2012, 11:10 AM  
Keep those OCAD tips and tricks coming!

After letting a bit of time go by I would like to discuss the middle distance map. I couldn't handle the contours especially in the part above Inland Road. I wonder whether it was the large number of formlines. Or perhaps wiggles have been fieldworked on top of earlier wiggles, I've found updating maps is harder than working off more generalised photogrammetry - and yet you don't like to throw away the result of previous hard work. Did I just have an off day? Could it have been produced at 2.5m?

Show Profile  nh Posted: 5 May 2012, 6:48 PM  
We went out and did a relocation exercise for training afterwards and I found there was a large amount of what felt like unnecessary detail mapped. E.g. very small re-entrants that you wouldn't notice while orienteering, that probably would have made the map easier to read if they had been left off.

Show Profile  The Map Guy Posted: 7 May 2012, 2:10 PM  
Who draws north lines individually? - see nh comments on page 36. This "solution" provided has limitations - but is good for cutting the N line where it covers important stuff.

The recommended method is to generate ALL of the north lines in one hit, then edit where necessary - trim back or chop out sections.

1. Select the icon for the north line (arrow or straight line).

2. Go to Map/Create Grid Lines (OCAD10), or Extras/Grid Lines (OCAD9).

3. Select only "create vertical lines".

This method allows for off-setting the north lines - nh's method probably will not.

Show Profile  theoman Posted: 7 May 2012, 3:07 PM  
You define the offset in the symbol initialisation in nh's method. I really liked nicks version, was so simple to use and allowed for quick and easy changes.

Show Profile  M.Beveridge Posted: 7 May 2012, 5:06 PM  
Michael if we had produced the map at 2.5 metres, like much of Woodhill is, the slope would have been almost unreadable particularly in the slightly steeper areas which most of it was and would hsve shown way to much unnecessary detail that didn't need to be shown. The contour lines would have been to close for comfort. I think what was done, was right.

You comment on to many formlines making it hard to read, which were basically only the chosen information at that intermediate level between 5 metre contours, is counter to you saying could it have drawn at 2.5 metres.

Show Profile  nh Posted: 7 May 2012, 6:29 PM  
All you need to do is change the angle from 90 degrees to whatever offset you want. Simple. There is no chopping back of each line as you only draw the area you want in the first place

Show Profile  The Map Guy Posted: 8 May 2012, 12:32 AM  
I think you have misinterpreted the meaning of "offset". I don't mean to change the angle of the north lines, but to literally shift all of them east or west a tad (or more), yet retain the angle at which they were generated.

Area symbols in OCAD are locked in to a predefined OCAD grid and cannot be readily shifted without having to edit the symbol - you do exactly the same (i.e. work out the off-set in mm) with the traditional method, so here there is no time saving.

Although I think the "nh" method has lots of merit, I think I'll still stick to the tried and true method that I've used on well over 100 maps since it was introduced in OCAD7. We shift the north lines to make the maps aesthetically pleasing to look at. This may require all of the north lines to be displaced (or off-set) a few mm, yet still retain the prescribed equidistant intervals.

The area symbol method has to be used with care, especially if a partial map is later extracted, or with cutting out small sections of the north lines.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 8 May 2012, 5:12 PM  
Re Middle Earth: In hindsight I think we did the right thing using 5m contours for a number of reasons after briefly considering the 2.5m option, which actually would have been easier to fit in with the other existing maps west of inland road. The flater part of the map near the beginning of the courses I believe would have looked clearer using 2.5m as there was a lot going on and many formlines were used anyway. But to me the vast majority of the map was represented well. It will always be a bit contentious having so many formlines on a map however I feel that the nature of this terrain type required them. You only need to look at many recent international event maps to realise we are not alone in sometimes having to depict the terrain in this way, alternatively using 2.5m contours would in some cases be clearer it is also going against the most common contour interval now used around the world even in complex terrain. It wasn't a clear decision though as the existing 2.5m version of the map on the west side of inland road (Stag's Roar)did give a very nice and perhaps better representation.

Another gray area was the decision by myself to include the small tree (green dot symbol) after a even split decision by three mappers.
Some of these were a little small, however they were distinctive as being non coniforous, there weren't that many of then, and leaving some of them off may have resulted in confusion. I also felt that including them on the complex terrain would help with navigation for some grades, particularly when the oringinal version of the map had almost no tracks on, until the 4WD club merrily destroyed some of the best parts of the map with a network of brand new tracks, much to our consternation.

Show Profile  nh Posted: 8 May 2012, 5:36 PM  
@The Map Guy, If you have more time, such as at the beginning of a mapping project, then using the Grid Lines function on OCAD could be better. But if you want to generate north lines quickly then I think the area symbol method is best. This is why we chose to use it for the ANOC maps, as there was a lot to do last minute.

@Paul I, I thought the decision to represent the trees on the map was a good choice, they were really obvious on the map amongst the brown, and also obvious in the terrain as they were the only green things above 1m.

Show Profile  Bryan Posted: 9 May 2012, 8:53 AM  
I have tried both methods over the years for magnetic north lines (I think Mark Roberts showed me the method using the symbol). There are merits to both ways. I currently use the generate grid method. For both ways, I find I can draw the magnetic north lines on any map in 5 to 15 minutes so for me compared with the time it takes to draw a map it's trivial and not an issue.

Also, I quite enjoy doing the layout of the map as I think it's important to present the map in the best possible way and I'll spend extra time on getting the layout right with things like legends/logos/titles/scale bars placed optimally not looking cluttered or too much empty space - there's an art to it. I also try to make each map unique by trying out slight differences in layout.

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 9 May 2012, 3:09 PM  
Interesting to hear thoughts on black vs blue north lines. I noticed that the rocky maps with fences at NISS had black north lines.

Show Profile  The Map Guy Posted: 9 May 2012, 3:40 PM  
I entirely agree with you Bryan.

North lines have to stand out from the rest of the map to be of any use. Rule of thumb is to use blue if there is heaps of black on the map - especially if the fences are north-south orientated. Otherwise black is probably the default option.

Chop out sections of the lines if there is conflict with the map.

Show Profile  rossmaxmo Posted: 11 May 2012, 1:42 AM  
I prefer blue. It should be a colour that's not heavily used, maybe someone should try out the ski-o green

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 15 May 2012, 11:48 AM  
A bit more on controlling the dashes (esp important in MTBO). I keep noticing places where the dash is too long and on inspection it turns out there's a corner point in the line (hollow square). There's something in the way I draw lines that gives me corner points and I haven't got down on what it is. I know you can get them if you drag two bezier tangents from the same point but I don't think it's that.

Anyway from the point of view of dashes, a corner point divides a line into sections, so that you get a FULL DASH on either side of it, in other words a double-length dash. Whereas a dash point (the little diamond) gives a standard dash at the point. In both cases the dash lengths on either side are adjusted somewhat to give equal dash lengths over each section of line. So if someone can tell me why I'm getting inadvertent corner points I'll be grateful (but still dealing with them for years to come I suspect).

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