 Neil K
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Posted: 18 May 2004, 12:11 PM
"the current D Squad is a joke"
Work with me tubby. Whats funny? i havn't heard anybody else laughing. Nobody has turned down the squad and most people enjoyed the camp. Explain man/woman.
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Ellmo1769
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Posted: 18 May 2004, 12:51 PM
You shouldn't piss the coach off Wetfish and you shouldnt slag D squad either after all you want to make it in and even if you did you wouldnt want everyone hating you
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Neil K
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Posted: 18 May 2004, 1:11 PM
Lets just clear a few things up:
- It doesn't take a genius to realise what the Development Squad is turning into. In my opinion, it current has far too many to be an elite-junior squad, and it is too small presently to be of any merit to the junior orienteering community. What I mean by this is, that wouldn't offering inclusion into the squad to anyone who has a level of commitment be far better than only to those who know the right people. In saying this, an elite-junior squad is far more effective in devoloping someone who in the future, may perhaps be the one to bring orienteering out from the shadows of only 1500 people competing.
YES THE SQUAD IS VERY LARGE AT THE MOMENT. THIS IS GOOD BECAUSE THE MORE PEOPLE INVOLVED THE MORE CHANCE OF HUGE SUCCESS, THE BETTER SOCIAL SIDE, THE HIGHER LEVEL OF BASE AND THE MORE SKILLED PEOPLE FOR COACHING OTHERS. YOU MAY THINK THIS IS BAD BECAUSE TOO MANY PEOPLE DILUTES THE FUNDS AND EFFORTS OF PEOPLE SUCH AS MYSELF FROM THE "SUPERSTARS". BUT TO COUNTER THIS IS THE FACT THAT I WILL SPEND MOST OF MY TIME ON THOSE PEOPLE THAT WILL BECOME STARS. THE REASON WHY IS BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE KEEN ENOUGH TO ASK ME FOR MORE HELP...THEY GET WHAT THEY PUT IN. ALSO TECHNICALLY I'M NOT THE D SQUAD COACH, I'M THE COACHING CO-ORDINATOR. THE THEORY IS I GET OTHER PEOPLE TO COACH, NOT JUST ME. SO WE CAN HANDLE MORE PEOPLE THEN YOU MIGHT THINK IN THE SQUAD.
Now I am definately starting to waffle, but in summary, the current D Squad is a joke. I hold no resentment against anyone for not being in the squad, as I feel I have no displayed the best of my abilities at events I have attended. However, there are those in the squad who I certainly hope have not shown their best abilities at the major events that they have competed at. YOUR RIGHT NOT EVERYONE HAS HAD THERE BEST RESULTS YET. AND I KNOW MANY OTHERS NOT IN THE SQAUD WHO ARE RUNNING GREAT AND WILL GET IN NEXT YEAR. UNTIL WE ARE AS STRONG AS SWEDEN WE WON'T HAVE EVERYONE IN THE SQUAD BEING AMAZING, BUT IN THE SAME TOKEN UNTIL WE ARE AS STRONG AS SWEDEN THERE CAN BE NO WINGING ABOUT NOT GETTING SELECTED. IF YOUR RESULTS IN NZ DON'T STAND UP AND SAY "PICK ME" THEN YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN ANY TALENT. I'M NOT SAYING YOU HAVEN'T GOT TALENT BUT DON'T EXPECT SOMETHING FOR NOTHING...NOBODY WILL DO WELL IN ELITE SPORT WITHOUT WORK.
You might ask what I am achieving by critising the current set-up. Apart from revealing flaws in the selection policy, YOU HAVEN'T REVEALED ANY FLAWS. GO AND HIGHLIGHT THE D SQUAD RESULTS IN THE NATIONALS RESULTS BOOK. BASED ON THE RESULTS THE SELECTORS DESERVE A MEDDLE. ITS FREAKISH HOW GOOD THEY DID. YOU MIGHT NAME 2 PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T PERFORM OUT OF 29? AND NOBODY ELSE STANDS OUT AS BEING MISSED. YOUR FULL OF SHIT IF YOU STILL HOLD TO THIS ARGUMENT AFTER ACTUALLY HIGHLIGHTING THE SQUAD IN THE RESULTS BOOK, I KNOW I'VE DONE IT.
I was hoping to develop constructive argument on how the system could be improved. WELL YOU FAILED, YOUR TONE WAS NOT CONSTRUCTIVE BEFORE. I am sick and tired about hearing of the lack of resources and therefore the inability of the sport to progress into anything meaningful. I AGREE. There are those who see the problems, those who will always lose, and those who see the solution... AS HEADHONCHO SAYS...WE WANT TO HEAR YOUR SOLUTIONS, YOU HAVEN'T TOLD US JACK YET. THE NZOF STRATEGIC MEETING IS COMING UP SOON...PLEASE TELL US, PLEASE.
OK, so lets get it rolling.
Some questions I feel need answering...
What are the aims of a development squad?
PRODUCE ELITE ORIENTEERS THAT CAN REPRESENT NZ.
WE DO THIS BY FIRSTLY MAKING COMPETITIVE ORIENTEERING ATTRACTIVE, THAT MEANS MAKING THEM ENJOY THE ORIENTEERING LIFESTYLE AND PEOPLE. SECONDLY UPSKILLING THEM TECHNICALLY TO BE GOOD ORIENTEERS. THIRDLY TO PROVIDE SUPPORT AND COACHING FOR THEM TO TRAIN FURTHER AND BE BETTER. AND ALSO I'VE GOT A HIDDEN AGENDA OF GETTING A TOP RESULT AT JWOC 07.
ACTUALLY THERE IS IS A SHIT LOAD MORE TO ANSWERING THIS QUESTION BUT THAT WILL DO FOR NOW.
Is this suffiicient to improve the sport as a whole? NO. ITS ONE COG IN THE WHEEL. ALLTHOUGH MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE I AM THE CHOSEN ONE, THE D SQUAD COACH IS NOT JESUS AND CANNOT SOLVE THE WORLDS PROBLEMS. I'M JUST CONCENTRATING ON THE SQUAD. BUT WHAT YOUR SUGGESTING IS DEVISING A STRATEGY FOR ALL JUNIORS IN NZ. FROM BEGINNERS TO JWOC WINNERS.
Is the current system going to achieve this?
NO. I PERSONALLY THINK COACHING AND SQUADS FOR JUNIORS SHOULD START AT SCHOOL, LEVEL, THEN CLUB LEVEL (EG HAWKES BAY, CHRISTCHURCH) THEN REGIONAL SQUAD AND THEN THE D SQAUD (AS THE ELITE OF JUNIORS)
THE PROBLEM IS WE LACK LEADERS FOR REGIONAL AND CLUBS SQUADS. THE REGIONAL SQUADS WERE STARTED BACK ABOUT 7 YEARS AGO, BUT IT DIED...
What about the "other" Juniors who see orienteering as a competitive sport and would like to seek opportunity for further development in their skills? SEE ABOVE. Is one camp a year doing this - or is it nothing more than a social get together?
THE PLAN IS FOR MORE D SQUAD ACTIVITIES THAN ONE CAMP. AND YES A HUGE PART OF THE CAMPS IS THE SOCIAL ASPECT. WOULD ANYONE FROM THE SQUAD LIKE TO COMMENT ON "or is it nothing more than a social get together" DID YOU GET ANYTHING ELSE FROM IT?
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Martin
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Posted: 18 May 2004, 1:27 PM
firstly, camp was far more than just a social get together! if you think that then you are either just making up utter rubbish, or you were very poorly informed, and need give your source a good beating.
i got alot out of camp and picked up on some weaknesses that i've since started to try and fix, namely:
a) reading too much detail unnecessarily, like before a big attack point
b)traffic lighting: i find that i slip into a relaxed mode and just go at a steady pace, when i cud really be changing speed more and actually hooning it in the 'green zone' before slowing up in 'orange' and 'red' areas. that was what i practiced at the score event just been, and it paid off 
the camp was at the right sort of time for me, it highlighted some of my technical skills that need working on and has given me time before jwoc to begin to address these.
well put neil. and yes, the auckland junior squad died a few years ago, but something promising could be on the horizon.
secondly, anyone at camp after the nationals would know that the camp was anything but 'just a social get together'. the intensity and amount of training was second only to that of national squad training. Most days averaged two or more orienteering activities, and the normally dreary 'route choice' exercise was turned into one of the camp highlights by the inclusion of sportident to time each route.
In saying how much orienteering we did, we had social time too, from mimicing the dining hall rules to watching dvds and spending an afternoon waterskiing (thanks tony)
for those that put the effort in, asked for coaches to shadow them and other things like that, the orienteering side of camp was very beneficial - those that put in the effort got the most and best coaching
This message was edited by Martin on 18 May 2004, 9:50 PM
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Greg
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Posted: 18 May 2004, 2:02 PM
Trust me its working for Martin I was with him for most of the Score event and he was flying.
Also people like Martin who have shown their keeness and ability will get invited along to Elite Zone trainings like he was on Saturday and get even more out of being part of the whole squad system.
And if there are no coaching/training events on organise one for yourself and stop complaining about only 1 camp a year, no one helps those that don't help themselves
This message was edited by Greg on 18 May 2004, 10:05 PM
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Andrew M
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Posted: 18 May 2004, 2:16 PM
In addition to Neil's comments....
The Development Squad isn't and will never be the only vehicle towards orienteering success. I between the camps you need a lot of individual motivation and drive. Camps and big events are the pinnacles of the year. Martin will attest that you cannot survive on just each of these two things to be a good orienteer.
Firstly get out the door and train. Each and every junior complains about their lack of physical conditioning on reflection of JWOC and Aussie campaigns. Secondly get a group to train with. Thirdly get a coach that can identify your weak technical skills and address them at local events. Finally come to Development Squad camps to fine tune and push your limits.
A development squad will facilitate your progress but it still comes down to the individual to pull finger in the interim.
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mark
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Posted: 19 May 2004, 1:20 AM
>"Each and every junior complains about their lack of physical conditioning on reflection of JWOC"
bullshit
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Wetfish
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Posted: 19 May 2004, 3:18 AM
I could go back and forward arguing with you, but I'm not. I've made my opinions clear and obviously you don't agree with me.
The D-Squad is good, but not great. But what is happening - a large squad - is not a refelction of the quality of juniors. What is happening is it is developing into a system where you need to know the right people.
Got to get back to work... more from me later.
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mark
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Posted: 19 May 2004, 3:42 AM
It has always been a system where you need to know the right people.
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onemanfanclub
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Posted: 19 May 2004, 3:58 AM
And of course orienteering in New Zealand is such a huge community that it is SO difficult to get known by the right people.
(That's sarcasm or irony or something, people)
This message was edited by onemanfanclub on 19 May 2004, 12:15 PM
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onemanfanclub
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Posted: 19 May 2004, 4:14 AM
Now, what I was intending to add...
Maybe the D-squad should be a small entity inhabited by onlu the VERY best "old" juniors and not-yet-in-NZ-squad elites. But for that to happen it needs a broader stepping-stone-base (feel free to mix in any more metaphors), such as the regional junior squads. "Regional" probably needs a loose interpretation here, strong clubs with no close neightbours (ie HB and PAPO) might get more out of doing their own thing, while most of the CD clubs at the moment would probably have to work together with Auckland. Anyone of the targeted age range and a reasonable degree of promise would be in these squads which would need their own coaches and managers (which might explain why when this concept goes back a few years now, there's little evidence of its existence), while the very best AND most committed would get promoted up into D-squad.
But until that happens, properly, I'd say the d-squad management are doing a fine job.
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Natalie
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Posted: 19 May 2004, 4:43 AM
Wetfish, you are indeed entitled to your opinions, which you have made semi-clear, but perhaps you haven't actually read everyone else's posts (other than to ascertain that they disagree with you), because if you did you would see that you in actual fact couldn't go back and forward arguing as you claim to be able to.
Most of your points have been disproved or at least had explanations.
How can you say that a large squad is a sign of a system where you need to know the right people? By the very nature of an expanding squad it is clear that the so-called 'right people' are actively looking for keen, talented juniors to include in the squad. This indicates that anyone who puts their hand up, does some races and shows some commitment and/or enthusiasm has a very high chance of being invited to join the squad.
"The D-Squad is good, but not great."
I think that the D-Squad is becoming something that NZ Orienteering can be proud of and excited about, as increased ranks and pro-active and organised coaching can only lead to increased strength, competition and even participation in the junior ranks, which in turn can only have a positive flow-on effect for NZ Orienteering as a whole, not only for elite level achievement (although this too will benefit) but for the whole orienteering spectrum.
Any juniors out there sitting around feeling hard done by and looking for faults in the system and/or someone to blame should stop wasting their energy expounding on negative subjects and let their orienteering talk for them. The best way to make yourself known to the selectors is to use outstanding juniors like Martin as a role model, either train really hard and consistently beat the people in the squad, or ask for help, attend as many races and training sessions as you can, put in the effort and you'll see the difference a positive attitude makes.
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addison
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Posted: 19 May 2004, 6:19 AM
As a member of the Development Squad, and one of the longest members in it at the moment: I see my role as not only being a member of the squad, but also helping Neil and younger members.
But regarding to the camp, sure it was good to catchup with everyone in the Development Squad... but more than that, it was great to see and test yourself against others on a semi-competitive level. The Development Squad Camps are more than just a camp, they are a get-together where the only thing on the agenda really is orienteering.
Off the topic. Orienteering is not carded aye? Is their any way it can get to be? Caus ive got lots of mates who are rowers, and heaps of them just got carded and jesus its the greatest thing out! They are so lucky its not funny. They are even sponsored by creamed rice, yuck but im sure if anyone wants any at any events, I could probably hook them up.
Well I would like to keep going, will later... gotta go see a surgeon about my achilies.
Simon.
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Dave Mcc
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Posted: 19 May 2004, 8:03 AM
Wetfish,
Are you just angry that someone got into the d squad infront of you, or do you feel that people are getting in that shouldnt be? Can you just clear that up.
Next I have few ideas for everyone to consider.
Last year OHV took the step at starting their own squad for the juniors they felt were competing well regionally. But OHV is not alone (I think). Clubs such as PAPO and HB for example, run training sessions for their juniors too. OHV's juniors get together each friday nigt for pack runs, motivating each other. How about taking this philospohy one step further. Using the superseries territories as a base, what would happen if we had junior squads for these areas. There would be more motivation, more get togethers and ideally - more enjoyment.
From there the coaches of these "regional" camps could get together and discuss possibities for entry to the d sqaud. It would no longer be a case of who you know but what you know.
The d squad should be seen as a major goal to juniors in New Zealand, and it is. I think it is a great idea to hold camps. After the recent camp I was privy to hear some exciting stories about the happenings, but they were all about oing. They had nothing to do with pulling all nighters or drinking. Sure its good to see your mates again, but i heard that many squaddies were too tired to care.
Wetfish I think you actually do have some valid comments. But perhaps instead of whinging about how you not in it, lets make some constructive comments rather than degrading something as important as the d squad.
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Neil K
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Posted: 19 May 2004, 9:58 AM
Wetfish perhaps what you meant to say was:
Hi I'm a junior orienteer who is pretty disappointed not to be selected for this years D Squad. Can anyone tell me what selection criteria the squad has and what I can do to get myself selected. It seems to me that it is based on "Who you know?" does anyone else feel this is the case? If so does anyone know how to overcome this problem.
or
Hi I'm a 16 year old male who likes long walks on the beach and elephants. Also I want to be a great orienteer. My orienteering hero is Greg Flynn, that is why I make stupid negetive posts on maptalk and I have a high opinion of myself. Unfortunatly I'm not in the D Squad. Can anyone give me advice and help me to improve my orienteering and keep pace with my rivals who are in the squad. I am particularly interested in someone local to coach me.
Hi allthough I don't know much about the d Squad because I'm not in it, I think it has the following weaknesses:
1
2
3
I have the following suggestions
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2
3
Any comments?
Also I have problems and solutions for those of us outside the squad...
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