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What would you do...

Show Profile  PaulS Posted: 9 November 2003, 12:41 PM  
If one of your controls is on hill, that is marked on the map as orange ("open").

But, when you get to that hill you think should be the right one, it is covered in trees, "green" trees, so you instead of climbing on top of it, you continue looking for an open hill. You spend about 20-25 minutes searching for a hill that has no trees on it. After relocating off every feature in the area of the control, you are wondering, where the hell is that hill!

Finally, you decide to go and have a look on the top of the hill you originally didnt climb, because well... you've got no other option. And, there it is, the control.

Had this had not happened, you probably wouldn't of won the race anyway, although you wouldn't of come last.

What would you do? Protest, or let it go.

This message was edited by PaulS on 9 November 2003, 7:42 PM

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 9 November 2003, 1:22 PM  

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 9 November 2003, 2:10 PM  
Protest, even if Brent nailed it

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 9 November 2003, 3:12 PM  
Hey come on, spit out the results!

Show Profile  Dave Mcc Posted: 12 November 2003, 3:46 AM  
Well I thought that alot of the forest on the map even though it was native shouldve been shown less than white. Most of it was clearly not full running speed. Also the gorges i found were extremly easy to run along bit was not shown on the map.......

I dunno everyone is allowed a grizzle when the have a shite run but for you paul if you sure it was your control and you havent been dsqed look at the map again and see if it was the right place and then if all else fails protest allthough i dont know what the benefits of it would be.......

Show Profile  PaulS Posted: 12 November 2003, 3:54 AM  
The control was on the hill i had originally thought it was, but i had not checked because of the vegitation marking on the map. It was definately the right control, and defitnately in the right place. It was that the map was marked as open, but it was actually covered in trees. This was confirmed with the mapper afterwards. I was the only one on my course who used the vegitation for navigation. Perhaps I should of used contours....

Yes, i agree... I don't see the purpose it protesting. In my opinion it makes you look like a sore loser. It also makes it difficult if you know the mapper/cartographer/planner/controller. I had also won the previous day so I guess I wasn't that unhappy with the way the event went. I just posted to see what other people would do, and it looks like you would probably protest.

Show Profile  Neil K Posted: 12 November 2003, 4:00 AM  
As far as the beautiful white forest not being runnable, you juniors need to harden up. Very little of the worlds best orienteering maps are as open as woodhill forest. In my day we would run bare feet through blackberries at twice your speed...

Where has all the aggression gone from our juniors and junior elites. Too long courses perhaps?

Show Profile  jeffg Posted: 12 November 2003, 5:30 AM  
Gorse should be taken at speed, and it is fun to pick the thorns out of your legs afterwards. A good high step will deal with minor blackberry, and even the patches of bush lawyer are quite runnable if you adopt a "spin-out-of-the-tackle" approach, a la Joe Rokocoko. Any other perceived similarities between Joe and the author are entirely fictitious. If you are going to blast straight through some lawyer, just make a quick check that you have identified it correctly as lawyer and not barbed wire. Ongaonga commands a bit more respect. A last-second fend off with the map may be useful here if contact is unavoidable.
For the record, Mark Lawson has discovered a simple way to disentangle oneself from barbed wire, and a good quick way to navigate down cliffs too, which he would be happy to share with any of you aspiring juniors.

Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 12 November 2003, 5:42 AM  
I don’t want you to get a distorted opinion, Paul: I would not have protested in this situation.
(Unfortunately our maps in NZ are not usually up to Scandinavian standards and so quite often my alarm bells go off as I’m reaching the control circle about something not being right, I usually slow and check a few other things and if they pass I continue to where I think it should be and if it’s there great, if not I relocate. It would be better if maps were prefect, as in Scandinavia I got used to my alarm bells going off actually meaning that I was wrong while here that’s not always the case but I don’t think protesting is the way to improve our maps. I think providing technical training for as many orienteers as possible and building the base of skilled mappers is more likely to give us more good maps in the future. Personally I thought Smedley was a great area and very well-mapped.)

White means that the terrain allows elite runners to be able to go at least 80% (maybe it’s even 70%) of their maximum running speed (slowing due to climb or requirements to read the map don’t count). All white that I went through on Smedley satisfied this criteria and much of what was mapped as light green would probably have been marked as white in Scandinavia. I think we all probably have to get better at running through the terrain, juniors and elites alike. I certainly haven’t been doing enough training in the terrain lately. Carsten’s got a new book which is talking about how the big difference in leg muscles used by orienteers and track atheletes – and if you do your training on the road or even on tracks you’ll be only training the muscles needed for road and track running…

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 12 November 2003, 8:59 AM  
How are we ever ment to get better maps if we don't let the mapper know it was shit. PROTEST

Show Profile  Natalie Posted: 12 November 2003, 10:14 AM  
Is there no other way to let the mapper know that there was a discrepancy in one area than to protest?

I wasn't aware of that.

Show Profile  addison Posted: 12 November 2003, 10:23 AM  
Paul. If you had been reading your contours properly, you should have been able to nail the control because you were 'positive' that it was the right hill. There is a general rule that contours are more accurate than vegetation, therefore reading your contours is more accurate for your orienteering than vegetation.

But yes, as you enter a control circle you expect a few things:
1) The map is correct
2) The setter to look at control sites before, and hoping that they have picked up on the problem on the map and therefore would move the placement of this control.

Because your control circle was wrong, Protest.

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 12 November 2003, 11:06 AM  
Natalie, No no other way that makes the point clear DON'T DO IT AGAIN! That goes for controlers as well.

Simon everyting on the map should be correct no matter what it is

Show Profile  PaulS Posted: 12 November 2003, 11:26 AM  
Perhaps if you had gone simon, instead of pussying out, you would know that becuase it was a NEW map, the vegitation was quite accurate for nearly the whole thing. This is why I felt confident using it for navigation. Everything else around the control was marked as forest, while that hill was marked as open.

Show Profile  Chris Forne Posted: 12 November 2003, 1:27 PM  
Well in my opinion, it really depends on how important the results are to you, whether the effect of the map error caused you major disappointment, and whether better navigation could have avoided the problem.

If the event meant a lot to you and you would have been happy with your performance had it not been for the map error, then protest, I'm sure most people including the mapper/controller would be understanding. However, presumably it was a fair race as far as everyone else was concerned, so don't protest unless you think it is important.

Contrary to what Greg says, I don't think that protesting is the best thing to do if you are concerned about our mapping standards.
I think this should be dealt with by discussing the issue with the NZOF and/or those involved. Lots of protesting may lead to better maps, but it is also likely to lead to more work, less events and fewer mappers/controllers that are happy and or qualified to help.

Finally as Jenni says, maps are seldom/never perfect, so you should always be prepared for some discrepancies.


Show Profile  ericm Posted: 12 November 2003, 1:51 PM  
I wouldn't protest. It is the same for everyone although luck will become more important at the expense of skill. But if you have map contact you should know or be able to work out what's going on pretty quick. The best runners generally are still the best regardless of map and course quality. It just reduces the fun and increases the frustration for everyone.

As a rule you should have at least 2 independent points of reference whenever possible to minimise the chances of misinterpreting a mapped feature as something else. Hence going on just the veg isn't necessarily the best approach.

I would however have some strong words to the mapper and course setter for putting a control in such a dodgy place.

Jenni, don't know what parts of Scandinavia you have run in but based on my observations mapping standards in NZ aren't that bad, certainly when compared to Sweden. I've seen far more shitty maps in Sweden than I have come across in NZ.

But I've seen far more shitty areas in NZ than I have seen in Sweden. :-)

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