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What would you do...

Show Profile  Dave Mcc Posted: 12 November 2003, 1:24 PM  
After O-max tonight i have to agree that not all maps are perfect. We had a large building some 100m long that was on the map but had been lifted off the ground by some big ufo and wasnt there. Perhaps as simon says being a more confident o-er is the key. i was dilly dalling for like 5 minutes looking for this god damn track when i shouldve just hit the gully and wham. Anyways point made here is even if you not sure check it out anyways, contours, creeks, gorges far off features all couldnt haver been wrong......

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 12 November 2003, 2:09 PM  
I don't expect to lose 1 second because of fault of the mapper or controler. This was an Area Champs event, everything should have been right, whats the point of having everything on the map if you are only ment to use contours, we might as well get contour only maps.

Show Profile  Svend Posted: 13 November 2003, 1:43 AM  
It surprises me how many people live in the past. The rules were changed in 1999 and you no longer protest if you encounter an infringement of the rules. You make a complaint. A protest is something that may occur later in the proceedings as a result of the decision regarding the complaint and there is no fee for a complaint.

Show Profile  rovert Posted: 13 November 2003, 3:32 AM  

I suggest you should try some setting sometime, or some controlling-or even mapping.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 13 November 2003, 3:48 AM  
Hey good point Svend. It is true that the current procedure is first to lay a complaint with the controller. My perception is though that it doesn't make too much difference...the outcome is still the same.

I advocate 'protesting', because at least then the issue gets aired. For all I know Paul's situation could have been rejected ala Aidan Boswell nationals 1998.

Chris, I think you miss the point. Protesting is not about 'you' and how 'you' feel. This deontological approach is far to self-focused and should as Greg rather crudely implies giveway to a broader ultilitarian calcualtion.

What actually are the standards that the map must meet? Must it be 'perfect' or is there an accepted margin of dubiousness?

I endorse both the comment of Simon 'the contours are most relaiable' and Eric 'the best runner generally wins anyway'. But as for 'Jenni no protest' our disagreement continues (see earlier thread around April 2003).

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 13 November 2003, 8:50 AM  
Again why can't people check their facts before making Claims, I've set, planned and mapped and even OCADed, I would rather someone protest, I'd guarantee I wouldn't make the same mistake again.
(whats with backwards names and x HOC members)

Show Profile  PaulS Posted: 13 November 2003, 9:31 AM  
If we should use contours for navigation then why bother mapping vegitation?

Show Profile  addison Posted: 13 November 2003, 11:08 AM  
In New Zealand we have a bit of a problem, and perhaps this is why Paul didnt protest.

If we protest, we look like Greg.

Show Profile  Dave Mcc Posted: 13 November 2003, 1:33 PM  
Protesting makes you look like a sore loser. Complaining makes you look like a whinger.

Show Profile  Marquita G Posted: 13 November 2003, 2:36 PM  
Jamie, if you can spell "deontological" correctly, why can't you spell "too" properly? What does "deontological" mean anyway?

Maps in NZ are generally pretty good and certainly no worse than Scandinavian ones. (Although Rob seems to think that PAPO maps are dodgy.) You need to assume the map is right, especially when it is new, but as Eric points out you can't rely on single aspects of a map to navigate to the right place. Orienteering is a process of constantly evaluating information that changes with every step you take. As soon as something doesn't add up you should definately stop and listen to the alarm bells but if the other 99% of the information seems right then proceed with caution. You shouldn't be losing 20 mins if you were pretty sure you were right to start with.

Show Profile  PaulS Posted: 14 November 2003, 12:53 AM  
when i get my map back i will post the leg in question and show you that the hill in question was bordered by a track, that was marked as clear. I didnt climb the hill because as a secondary feature, as you keep telling me you need more than one, I was looking for an open hill. I then when back the way I came up after having no luck finding the control, to try and relocate. I checked off features and wondered what the hell was going on...

Perhaps Marquita, you wouldn't of lost 20 mins, and you "alarm bells" may have gone off, as you have been orienteering for nearly 20 years, and have probably experienced a similar situation. I have been orienteering for just under three years, and I haven't come across a faulty map yet. Maybe its experience that you need in orienteering, if the maps aren't going to be accurate, then every blames you for making the mistake for relying on vegitation markings. Since you are all so good, maybe you should request black and white maps at the next major event. :-)

Show Profile  rovert Posted: 14 November 2003, 2:08 AM  
What I was trying to say in my backwards and laconic way was;

When setting and visiting a site, you try to avoid an area for control placement where what you see in front of you doesn't tie up with what's on the map. I havent seen the area in question but there are sometimes different interpretations of how it has been mapped and how it appears. From what PaulS is saying it seems fairly clear.

If its worth continuing with the leg then remap around the control site or move the control somewhere else.

However, having made a potential error in placing a control or choosing a site its just as shattering for the setter/controller to be in that situation as it is for the competitor.

If you feel you should complain/protest, then do so and move on, the lesson having been learnt by all parties.

Perfection is a blissful state and I would never be able to guarantee that despite all due care in setting, I would never make another error, but I would like to think I wouldnt make the same mistake.

I'm no gun orienteer but what Marquita says is good sense.

Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 14 November 2003, 3:17 AM  
Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought many of our maps are dodgy. It's a minority and they're maps usually used for small events so I don't think you will have sampled them Eric. I admit that a few of the ones I'm thinking of are PAPO maps but I remember a story of Mike running in a club event near Auckland where he went neck deep into a marsh that wasn't on the map? And the old Naseby map certainly had a few dodgy areas in it where I have lost time before thinking I was wrong when I wasn't. The procedure Marquita outlined for dealing with alarm bells is pretty much the same as I said isn't it, I check a few more things and then proceed with caution. I do agree that the Swedes don't seem to care at all if the vegetation changes on a map. The first training I did, the first time I went to Sweden I lost a lot of time due to a big new felled area that I'd thought they would have marked with a map correction but they hadn't. Now when training in Sweden I hardly take note of the vegetation at all and concentrate on the contours.

Yes Jamie, I have a different view on protesting, I think I'm entitled to have my own view. I do think protesting is about you,
you decide whether you feel that whatever happened to you warrants you protesting. For me it relates to my general aims in going orienteering and the general aims I have for New Zealand orienteering. I go orienteering because I love it. I want New Zealand orienteering to grow so that we have weekly events throughout the country. I enjoy it even when there's a mistake in part of my course even if that frustrates me for a while (I try to treat it as a teaching in the Buddhist sense - it's good for my inner calm to be tested...). So I see no point in protesting. Others are obviously more interested in results (I'm not saying I don't like to have a good result, I do it's just not my reason for orienteering) and I see they may want to protest. There also seems to be a belief that protesting prevents mistakes in the future, I'm not sure that's been proved in any scientifc way and my gut feeling is that it's not the case. As Svend points out if you think those involved aren't aware of the mistake then complaining will make them aware of it. No mistakes are made deliberately and I think people put as much effort as they can into not making them. It seems to me that's all you can ask. If we're going to have weekly events then we'll need to have lots more people going orienteering and lots of people willing to map, plan and control. I believe that a culture of protesting will inhibit people from volunteering so that's my main reason for being "Jenni no protest" and wishing to discourage others from doing it. I guess you are going to say that having dodgy course setting will discourage people from going orienteering and I agree. I want us to have great maps and planning and I think we should work at constructive ways of achieving that.

This message was edited by Jenni on 14 November 2003, 1:12 PM

Show Profile  fraser Posted: 14 November 2003, 3:26 AM  
Unlike the control at ANZAC weekend where numerous people had problems with the location of the control, so far Paul is the only one who has complained about it. Did other people have problems with this control too? The area had numerous vague and indistinct vegetation boundaries, was this control really so blatantly wrong as Paul makes it sound?

Show Profile  Marquita G Posted: 14 November 2003, 5:22 AM  
You're absolutely right Paul, experience would have helped a lot here. Funnily enough, I was looking at an old map of Smedley that I ran on in 1991 for the National relays and my comments included several snipes along the lines of "no. 3, map is stuffed and couldn't relocate". Looking at it now I see that there were plenty of things I could have used to relocate better but at the time the map faults had me stumped. Just think, in another 17 years or so you should be an expert!

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