Posted: 19 September 2002, 8:10 AM
I have a commission from NZOF to design the 2003 SuperSeries. There are some things that I need squad input on, they include the events that will make up the series and the scoring system. I propose to try out Maptalk Forum for this.
PLEASE NOTE I DON'T WANT CONTRIBUTIONS FROM NON-MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL SQUAD, IF I GET THEM I WILL CLOSE THIS THREAD AND REVERT TO EMAIL.
The events. The only applications there are for major events next year are the Easter-Anzac Carnival (mostly Woodhill) and the Auckland Champs 11-12 Oct (Woodhill). I have asked all clubs to let me know what they have in mind but we can guess there might be a QB event (but inknown location) and three other area champs in spring. CDOA is down to have Labour Weekend.
Given this likely but unconfirmed scenario, what would you ideally choose for the events? No doubt you will consider the north-south balance, groupings of events to help travel, how long you want the series to last, and what type of events: into the mostly classic events you might throw some short, sprint and maybe an extra-long event. Do you want to align with the calendar year, or would it be better to regard the season as going from spring through to the time that some of you head off to the northern hemisphere?
And the other topic that I KNOW you would love chewing over is the scoring system. But I'm not going to allow discusssion of that initially. I want your thoughts on what sort of performance you are trying to reward: the occasional brilliance or the consistent runner. And is do you want to reward placing mostly, or time, ie is 2nd by 1sec nearly as good as winning, or significantly further back? When I have some ideas on that I'll get Derek Morrison who has studied the maths of these things to propose a formula.
REMEMBER, THIS TOPIC IS FOR NATIONAL SQUAD MEMBERS ONLY. If anyone else wants to talk about it, start your own thread.
Best regards, Michael Wood
Posted: 19 September 2002, 8:24 AM
I don't know how realistic it is (in terms of events), but I like the idea of the Spring to Autumn series, climaxing perhaps at Queens Birthday.
How about 1 event each in either island during Oct/Nov, a series/ or weekend sometime over summer (more viable some years rather than others, another event in either island before nationals, then nationals, the QB, in the Island where nationals wasn't.
competitors must compete in Nationals and QB, plus 2 other events to count.
Posted: 19 September 2002, 2:04 PM
Jamies idea is good running the series starting from Area champs time through summer and ending with QB, this would give the oppertunity for some high quilty events to be ran during the summer period when there are none usally. Most National squad members normally get together then for NY and sorts so why not hold a few events at the same time. At events you should be out to Win not get 2nd by 2 seconds so my view is scoring should be on placing. I also like Jamies idea of have Nationals and a few other events a must.
Posted: 22 September 2002, 3:14 AM
I totally agree with Jamie and Greg. Kick the Series off in Spring with the Area Champs and have the big finale at the QB3. January events would be perfect. Maybe the Aust/NZ Elite test could always be in January when its our turn?
Making the Nationals and QB3 compulsory is worth considering, but if someone gets sick or injured and can't compete, it kind of stuffs up their whole season. Maybe the fact that these two weekends have more races (especially if there is a sprint race) on offer, therefore more points, could be enough to get everyone there racing?
I think the points system needs to be kept simple, say 1st=20, 2nd=17, 3rd=15, 4th=14, 5th=13........ I think the World Cup and PWT Series works likes this. There can be only one winner. It doesn't matter if the 2nd place competitior is 1 sec, 10 secs or 4 mins behind, whichever way you look at it he/she is still the first loser.
Inclusion of sprint, short, classic, loop, relay, massed start races would all be good, for spectators but also us as competitiors. Maybe the Nationals relay could have a one man section for elite runners? Same courses, we just run them all! We could still be counted as a club team, which means there would be heaps more teams in the race.
Mike, I hope when you are considering all of these comments you check out the parallel forum on the same topic started by onemanfanclub. There are some good ideas!
Posted: 23 September 2002, 3:39 AM
seems to be consensus so far, or at least the poles are converging :-)
some of the ideas in the other thread are good....but keep it simple.
so what do you reckon Mike, an abbreviated season next year then a nice structured season Sept 2003/ early June 2004.
Posted: 23 September 2002, 7:57 AM
Sorry Michael, posted reply here by mistake, have deleted.
Edited by - MASH on 23/09/2002 15:02:39
Posted: 23 September 2002, 3:18 PM
I don't know if you want to hear the same things over, but just to show where my favour lies: I am completely sure the Spring to Autumn season is the best. It seems everyone is keen for this format in all levels of orienteering, yet nothing has been done about it. I say we lead from the front and encourage change. The National squad talked about quantity to keep up interest, but I think that it is consistency not quantity. More evenly spaced events over this period than necessarily including all the area champs.
I also agree with the ideas posted elsewhere about club uniforms. Perhaps it could actually include area "teams". Nothing would really have to change, except one more points table. Although this seems like one more thing tacked on, it would add to the appeal of local news papers to follow there local heros...."The wellington area team of Barr, McCarthy and Bradshaw head to Auckland this weekend to compete in the third leg of the New Zealand orienteering super series. McCarthy will be trying to hold his individual lead, while as a team they will try to catch the team event leaders of Jamie Stewart, Michael Tagg and the up and coming Kieran Thayer from Otago...."
I also think points should be allocated on placing rather than time. I was second by just seven seconds on Sunday at the Auckland champs, but that sucked compared with winning. The goal is to win and beat the opposition, not just get out and try to get as close as possible.
Posted: 24 September 2002, 4:50 AM
Posted: 29 September 2002, 1:41 PM
I have to make a point that was put to me over the weekend, that has not been raised until now.
You have asked the National Squad exclusively for their input into how the Super Series should be run, when in reality the Super Series is not only for the National Squad. On the current points table there are 10 of the top 20 men that do not belong to the National Squad. Do these people have less of a say than members of the National squad who do not even appear on the points table?
Posted: 10 October 2002, 12:47 PM
This is to reassure everyone that I am open to all ideas about the Superseries. But I wanted to talk specially to NOS members about it and the maptalk forum seemed like a good way to do it.
Posted: 31 October 2002, 6:45 PM
As there have only been 4 contributors from the National Squad, and no contributions for a month, this topic is hereby opened to anyone interested. Michael Wood
Posted: 7 November 2002, 8:06 AM
Sorry for the slow response, but this was mainly due to agreement with most ideas presented so far as opposed to lack of interest.
I agree with the suggestions for running the Super Series from Spring to Autumn, and having QB3 as the final would create some excitement and purpose for the event. I also agree with the uniforms point, this would help nurture some sense of identity and pride for both runners and clubs/regions. And lastly I think the idea (raised in the parallel open forum) of a big Park O with electronic punching as part of the Super Series is a fantastic idea, like a much-needed high profile showcase for our sport.
As to the event format, I would like to see all the events in the series count, this makes the series more interesting to follow because at any time the points board indicates actual overall standings, not subject to final manipulation. However since all of the events likely to be included in the series are multidays, this means that runners are seriously disadvantaged if they are unavailable for an event. To this end, perhaps not every race in the event can count, but instead overall points could be allocated for the event, or a single race could be selected prior which would count for Super Series points, or something so that each multiday event would count as one lot of points??? I'm not too sure of the details, but its just an idea.
Maybe, since we have trialled at the Area Champs this year having one race per event with a varied format for the Elite fields, these races could be the Super Series races, and have for example a massed start loops race like Jenni & Carsten's in Canterbury at one event, a short race with chasing starts at another, a classic somewhere else, a park/sprint elsewhere etc etc. Perhaps the Nationals could have all events count, or more than one event count but smaller events just the one special specific Super Series race in addition to the Classic Championship race.
Those are my thoughts!
Happy 'o' everyone :-)
Edited by - Natalie on 7/11/2002 15:09:27
Posted: 19 November 2002, 8:12 AM
The discussion on the length of classic races is interesting and I suggested you might want to specialise in a certain distance.
That's if you have international competition as a goal. I think (tell me if you disagree) that the superseries would be most interesting if the race formats were varied. That is, it will find the best all-rounder. We should include from sprint to classic and perhaps beyond.
We are probably going to have to scrape the bottom of the barrel of events foir next year because hardly any have been applied for; either that or we'll pick some events that "might" happen and then find out they are not that suitable. But what I am tending towards is
1. An abbreviated series finishing at QB, before moving to a spring-to-autumn series for 2002-03
2. The mini series wold include events from the NZ Champs and Anzac Carnival, probably not all. Say the NZ Classic, Short and Park, and two from the Anzac end of things. And the yet to be applied for QB. I had an interesting offer from WaiOC suggesting their Winter Classic which would give an extra-long event. I'm trying to get them to agree to move it to QB and for other WOA clubs to run supporting events; eg a park race in Masterton which has a beaut park which could support more than a single round, or shomething short on Hidden Lakes which is an area more detailed than most sand-dunes.
Thre's no room for anything else is there? Your test in Oz comes in between these two? The only posibility I can think of is if Taupo are able to do a good OY the day after Katoa Po.
This is all in the NI. Is there any solution to that?
I asked Derek Morrison to look at scoring on a placing-only basis because the feedbnack I got was this year's was too complex and beating the next guy is the goal. There could be 7 events in those outlined above, do you want to drop your worst two in your score otr does everything count? Allows someone to not attend the Anzac part or the QB part. Allows someone who attends the lot to drop the two longest or the two shortest if they are outside their speciality. Allows someone to have the flu.
Then, are two 2nds better than a win? How steeply should the points drop off. I;ll send yor general comments to Derek who has studied scoring systems in other sports. But he needs some general principles.
PS Ask your club what they are running next year, the calendar is virtually empty so far
Posted: 19 November 2002, 11:53 AM
The mini series wold include events from the NZ Champs and Anzac Carnival, probably not all. Say the NZ Classic, Short and Park, and two from the Anzac end of things.
This makes me a bit nervous Michael. Do you want the elites to start resting and not competing on the days that don't count? I know that if only two days of four counted in the ANZAC weekend then I would consider only running those two. This would be a real shame as it would instantly cut out around 10% of the years quality events.
I don't think there is a problem with counting all the days of a multiday, as long as it's the same for everyone. Perhaps the overall results of the four days could be counted as one result?
Posted: 19 November 2002, 2:48 PM
As it looks like all the Super Series events will be spread out over the whole year I think that it is reasonably trivial when the Super Series starts and finishes. A spring to autumn series is a waste of time, especially if you consider that there is now at least three months till when the next Super Series event would normally be. For this reason I think it makes more sense just to stick to a calendar year.
The Super Series needs to be visible otherwise it is nothing more than a glorified OY. An emphasis should be placed on spectator appeal for all the events. All runners must wear club colours and a race number. The race number could be their current Super Series ranking.
It should be a minimum requirement to have a loud speaker and commentary. Every race should have a prizegiving immediately after the race out at the event centre. It should be an achievement just to win one race of the Super Series and recognised as such.
The number of races should be kept to a minimum next year and all the resources should be poured into these events to have large fields and good prizes. Prizes are important. I suggest only five or six races should count next year. If any races are part of a multi day then they should be just the first day and this would remove Stu's concerns above. Alternatively all days could count.
Every race should count. Park World Tour scoring should be used.
Suggested series for next year:
1 Sunday after All Night Relays (middle distance spectator race before others start their OY)
2 Nationals Park Champs (sprint)
3 ANZAC Day 1 (classic)
4 QB Day 1 (middle or classic)
5 Winter Classic (long)
6 Labour weekend (all 3 days - Super Series finals weekend??)
Edited by - fraser on 19/11/2002 21:52:00
Posted: 19 November 2002, 3:16 PM
I like Frasers Ideas! Apart from not running a Spring to QB series.
I think we need to have a finalised calander from Clubs before we can start selecting which events can count (eg Winter classic timing).
Maybe we could send out something to the organisers of the events that Fraser has listed and ask them if they would be able to put on their event to this SS standard.
Is there still support for Nationals to be included and have a higher points?
Edited by - greg on 19/11/2002 22:18:27