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Internet Q&A

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 2 February 2009, 10:19 AM  
Thank you Fraser and Jamie for those contributions on copyright. It's certainly worth debating.

My club takes the view that its most precious resource should not be available in a printable form on the web. Many other clubs have copyright wording on their maps and it would seem that they might take a similar view. I suggest that's a thread on its own, could we keep this one for the technical internet issues?

Thanks Martin, a jpg or gif (in conjunction with background dimming) might be the answer. Though it degrades both the foreground (winners routes and controls visits etc) and the background together, that's why I was going down the pdf road.

Show Profile  Rog Posted: 2 February 2009, 10:26 AM  
Opps, I see some questions directed at me.

AOC has routegadget set up on its website.
On the TODO list is an information page on how to use and where to get that information and what is needed etc.

Running routegadget for TONIC was a worthwhile exercise - and I apologise about it being incomplete. There are some issues to sort out and we are working on them - just not right now.

1. Routegadget didn't like Two Race format.
After spending an hour or two looking at the underlying code - I found it didn't read in the course details correctly, and it needed to be investigated further. (It would be quicker to edit the course files from OCAD to get around the issue). I haven't got back to it as its lower priority than other O things, and the later solution.

2. Some of the required files were not available to upload for the missing event.

RE: Low usage - I feel mentioning routegadget more and the encouragement of competitors to draw their route line on the map as soon as they finish their course will increase usage and improve ability to use it later on, when events start to blur into one. We are going to have information about its use up front when the programme comes out as opposed to after the event. Also going to have instructions on the site for first timers.

Map Protection - I haven't tested it yet. I'll check that out sometime. I have some ideas how it may be possible to get the JPEG file, which I will try. I guess it depends on how the webmaster sets up their folder security settings as well.

As jeffg mentioned, we are focused on Nationals right now, and I will be asking Setters/Controllers to prepare files before the event so they don't have to do it afterwards, reduce any time delay putting them up, - and we can put it up on as soon as the controller makes his changes to the results. No, the maps wont be up on the website until after the event!

Theres other stuff which I'll comment on later

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 2 February 2009, 10:37 AM  
I think this counts as a technical issue: you can see above that there's some guru stuff that someone needs to do to run a Routegadget "service". I guess that Rog has been prepared to do this for Labour Weekend, and will do it for the nationals. Its another level to be available week in week out on a longterm basis, and I suspect that's would be required to enable most events to be put up, so that we can realise its potential.

When Martin ran a service, you sent your files to him for installation. Is that still necessary Rog, or can you do the upload yourself as we do with Winsplits?

Show Profile  addison Posted: 2 February 2009, 11:38 AM  
Sounds pretty tu meke Darren!

But say you charge $5 I am sure there would be heaps of groups that would only pay for the one useage fee for one map and just print heaps of extras off and sort of rip off the system a bit?

Show Profile  addison Posted: 2 February 2009, 11:41 AM  
Pretty ballsey Michael - telling Fraser, the founding father of Maptalk, he isn't posting in the right thread!

Show Profile  addison Posted: 2 February 2009, 11:42 AM  
Ohhhh gutts. By the way Darren, NZOF can't fund anything if its levy is cut to 10%.... maybe this should be in a new topic?

Show Profile  darren Posted: 2 February 2009, 12:29 PM  
Simon said "But say you charge $5 I am sure there would be heaps of groups that would only pay for the one useage fee for one map and just print heaps of extras off and sort of rip off the system a bit?"

Isn't that what happens now? If the alternative is for them not to go orienteering (because access to maps is too hard), then I'm all in favour of them ripping the system off a little bit. If they get hooked and start coming along to events I'm sure that clubs would make their dollar off them then.

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 2 February 2009, 1:28 PM  
A few comments..
I had routegadget up and running for approcx 18 months before my personal hosting expired. I did it as there was a distinctive lack in NZ and I wanted to be able to compare routes.

It is possible for anyone to add events, it just needs a password. However I tried to keep it as simple as possible for event organisers and actively recruited the big events (including NZ Champs 2008, NZ Champs 2007 and most of the super series events).

It was far simpler for me to create a set of instructions describing the required files than teaching people how to set up events. Its alot more manual process than uploading files to winsplits because the layout of controls has to be scaled to fit the map. If anyone is interested in the instructions, I have the manual and can email it.

With regards to usage, after the NZ Champs last year there were up to 40 people posting routes I think. And barely any were elites. Publicity wasnt huge, mostly maptalk and word of mouth.

All the events and routes which were previously on routegadget are still here waiting for a more natioanlly oriented approach...

Here's the technical stuff. Routegadget is coded in Perl, which most alot of website hosts don't support, including Kudos where Maptalk is hosted. otherwise I predict it would have been here a long time ago. I don't think the NZOF website hosting supprots Perl either.

I am more than happy to continue operating a routegadget service if it was set up nationally.

Show Profile  jeffg Posted: 2 February 2009, 1:55 PM  
So do we collar the M/W 21E athletes at the finish and sit them down at the back of the finish tent with a copy of the map to fill in their course?

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 2 February 2009, 2:04 PM  
Yes, that way you might catch the cheaters like those who went through the building at Lincoln to number 10.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 2 February 2009, 2:26 PM  
back to the Darren/Simon debate (we can handle more than one discussion on a thread can't we Michael?) Is the map really the only intellectual property/thing of value we have? What about skilled course setting/SI/event prestige? Its events with these characteristics we should be trying to recoup the costs of maps off..

...not the local school/scouts/whoever training in the park...

I have argued for a long time that O training is too difficult to organise for your regular joe orienteer, accessing the map, fiddling with it in OCAD (cause someone sends you an unsized whole map file with no legend or scale etc in the right place). A4 sized maps with training suggestions or blank should be available free of charge for all our well used city maps....its about getting people orienteering right?

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 2 February 2009, 3:54 PM  
I see that I included copyright policy in opening this thread, but since it has broadened I'd like to see a new topic on policy. Topics are there to help forum users, and I want a place just to chew over website nitty gritty with other webmasters. The mapping thread is working well in this way.

Talking of running websites, I'm self-taught, I would appreciate some workshoppy thing to learn from others. People like Fraser, Simon, Martin, Paul. Every club now has a website and you can hardly run a major event now without an event website, can you?

Show Profile  Rog Posted: 3 February 2009, 2:33 AM  
Michael, yes, we can upload other events into the AOC hosted site.
AOC's installation isn't set up for multiple people use- it is set up as a single user site.
As Martin mentioned, there is a single login account for each routegadget site.
There are issues using a single login user systems for multiple people. If multiple people are using it at the same time, they could accidentally overwrite the other users stuff and get some strange results i.e. errors.

Other sites do offer shared access to it and the UK site is an excellent example of what I think you are looking for for NZ. is using a URL address based separation of each club to solve the problem of multiple users using it on one host. i.e. RoutegadgetUK sets up a unique routegadget installation in each clubs own folder on the one host, and he gives them each their own password to solve the multiple user problem. It would be easy to set up.

Perl support is included in many hosted solutions running on Linux. and sometimes Windows. When looking for a new host its a balance between price and looking at the hosting specs to check they include what you need for the stuff you are going to run on it and the amount of traffic you expect. There's no point paying extra for services you dont need at the time and hosts or accounts can be changed over time as needs change.

Show Profile  Rog Posted: 3 February 2009, 4:24 AM  
Having a quick rough look at cost to set up a dedicated site for NZ Routegadget by itself for example - hosting ignition plan may work (depending on how popular it became and say around 100 map limit?) Would cost $8.95/month + $30 /year domain hosting fee = $155 per year
Of course, if the site was used for other things as well the cost isn't that much. Could also host overseas or elsewhere if you wanted it cheaper/diiferent.
I have seen reports elsewhere that routegadget can chew bandwidth quickly with high use, although Martin indicated it wasn't bad.
I'm happy to help set it up as Martin is happy to maintain/run it etc.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 3 February 2009, 5:05 AM  
Reciently at Oceania I chose to stay at Spencerville holiday park. It was an easy and strategic choice you see, while perusing the web for convenient spots Spencerville HP advertised that you can purchase a map of the surrounding sand dune forest complete with a variety of permanent O courses.
It didn't take me long to track down a map via the kiosk for about $5? and head out on the awesome map. What really impressed me was the fact that the park even advertised certain times for a competition for people to 'come and try and beat your mates'. On the morning of our Oceania Sprint I witnessed probably 20 non orienteers in a short space of time doing orienteering on a proper map in a proper forest.
It blew me away!
Why can't this be repeated around the country - each club start with a goal to make at least one such facility. Forgive me if there are more but if so how do we know where they are and how to get hold of a map?
Well done ChCh PP.

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