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Internet Q&A

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 11 December 2008, 2:49 PM  
Darren wrote... "Any chance the maps can be put up on the website?"

This was once a matter of file size, now its mainly about protection of IP. It made me think there's a need for a thread about internet matters, similar to the mapping one.

So initially I'm interested in the policies other clubs have about putting their maps on the web, perhaps technical details of how to degrade them so they can't be printed but still look OK on the screen. OCAD has a facility for internet maps, is that the answer, Map Guy?

I would also expect to learn from discussion of other problems and solutions to do with websites.

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 12 December 2008, 2:53 AM  
Everyone seems pretty happy about posting maps to routegadget.

what difference is there between putting a map on routegadget and posting some images of maps on a website (as Waitangi Carnival did last year).

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 12 December 2008, 3:23 AM  
Yes and Routegadget is such a brilliant learning/entertainment tool that I hope we are all happy to post maps there. But I think you can only print what you see on the screen can't you? Does this give any protection against printing the whole map (which my club is concerned about)? Or is it the only club that is worried about this?

BTW Roger if you read this is it difficult to fix day 1 race 2 and get day 3 on there? Can you/AOC provide a service for other events or would that be an imposition?

Show Profile  Alistair Posted: 13 December 2008, 9:59 PM  
Swedish maps are slowly being added to this register: It's useful at least to find out if there are any maps for wherever you're going to. The quality of the samples isn't always good enough to use for quality training though.

Paul - the map you and Kevin drew back in the 80s is even registered with your names but without a sample!

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 14 December 2008, 2:44 AM  
It was on the cusp of the 90's. OMG the 80's sound so old hahahahahahahaha. ouch!
By the way al - thanks so much for your running/training mini series. I'm sure all of us will take something major from your shared knowledge, it's certainly answering some of my training questions although now I have to apply rules to fit to an older body. Much appreciated.

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 17 December 2008, 3:41 PM  
In the absence of any views from NZ clubs: Alistair what's the view of Swedish clubs towards their maps? Would they expect orienteers wanting to do some training for example to pay something for maps?

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 2 February 2009, 3:55 AM  
My experiments with Routegadget suggest that it gives the protection we seek - it's not practical to print a usable map, and yet its fine on the screen.

HOWEVER no-one in NZ is offering a Routegadget service. Martin did but lost access to a server with the required facilities. Roger put up some maps for Labour Weekend but didn't complete the job so may not have the time to regularly receive and post the files. IMO its the sort of thing that NZOF should fund under coaching, since its a learning tool as well as entertainment.

But back to my club's wish to display maps (well more accurately courses) while protecting its major resource. I have found a way and want help to refine it. Open the map as a background, and then it can be dimmed. Draw the course in the foreground. Export as a pdf.

Current issue is that the resulting pdf is quite large, in my test case 1.25mb for an A4. That's in spite of choosing the lowest resolution for the background (OCAD won't let you have less than 50). Any ideas?

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 2 February 2009, 4:38 AM  
Try exporting it in a picture format (jpg or gif), the file size will probably be much less.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 2 February 2009, 5:41 AM  
I think establishing route gadget should be made a high priority for the NZOF HP Director and Acting Director (sorry Carsten ;-)) As Michael says it is an incredible learning opportuntiy and something we should not be missing out on vis-a-vis the rest of the world. Especially given the investment we have made in si technology.

Since no one has stepped forward to make it happen we need some central direction and co-ordination. Theres no rocket science here...

Show Profile  addison Posted: 2 February 2009, 5:47 AM  
Whats the point though Jamie?

You set up all these innovations, including route gadget, and piss all people utilise them.

If it is to be utilised for a proper training or skill development technique then we need the majority of the elite field, in particular, to post their routes. This just doesn't happen, as shown previously.

Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 2 February 2009, 6:05 AM  
As I was just writing on the other thread (but I put the wrong password so it wasn't there when I went back) Carsten is still busy with his other "things" at the moment. There seems to be lots of "things" that need to be high priority just in the high performance job, let alone other commitments Carsten has. Some of these things have been done, like the superseries points tables but the contract for the new coach dude is still on the urgent list.

If you didn't guess from questions in another thread, Carsten has just got a new computer and this is his personal highest priority at the moment (like staying up all night making it do what he wants it to do).

My highest priority for him is fixing our house things and some "things" seems to be happening (but at least we have Georgia, who we're paying the same as Carsten gets paid, to keep me happy that "things' are progressing).

Then there are lots of mapping things that need to be finished, I believe Gabriel's gully is at the top of this list.

And there is the priority of making sure Southerly Storm stays at the top of the table so we're doing O trainings every other day towards that one, tonight is Dalethorpe.

So I think some people might have to respond to Carsten's requests for help with hp jobs (paid I beleive) if they want "things" to happen any sooner.

Show Profile  jeffg Posted: 2 February 2009, 6:21 AM  
We're (i.e. Roger is) aiming to get Route Gadget set up for Nationals, in advance rather than after the fact (well I don't imagine the maps will go up in advance, but you know what I mean). This will be a good test case for usage. If it's going to be there, and we advertise the fact in advance, how many people will use it?
Hopefully lots!

Aside from its value as a training tool, I think it is very useful to course setters and controllers, as you can't always anticipate how the orienteering masses will handle (or mess up) your various course legs.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 2 February 2009, 6:59 AM  
As you know Simon it takes time for things to bed in, route gadget needs to be given a fair go and a proper centrally directed set-up would aid that.

Everyones busy Jenni, even me believe it or not, and you know the last thing I would do is hassle your mysterious danish. The reality is it was set-up by Martin some time ago, and I advocated then for nzof to get in behind him (cause no club will cause its a national thing) and I'm still advocating now. Lots of shit that people do in HP (me especially) has no real impact. Route Gadget is a very concrete improvement we can make to coaching, hp and the enjoyment of all nz orienteers.

Jeff ,agree entirely

Show Profile  fraser Posted: 2 February 2009, 7:00 AM  
There should be a database of maps where anyone can go and view maps, even down load and print them off. This can only help orienteers and further promote the word of orienteering.

What are clubs honestly worried about? Losing a few bucks from people doing a bit of informal training? It's not like its hard to photo copy a map but most people probably reuse their old maps when they go training anyway. Should clubs be clamping down on this?! Puh-lease, orienteering clubs need to get over themselves.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 2 February 2009, 7:14 AM  
(heres a chunk of a document I sent to the NZOF strategic meeting last person that implies I have some sort of vested interest better be as big as Addison.)

More Clubs, More competition:

We need more clubs. Orienteering clubs are a monopoly in towns. Monopolys are bad. Clubs are under no pressure to provide additional services to their members, eg different event formats, coaching, a particular social environment. And crucially individuals or groups with new ideas have establishment forces to overcome, draining their energy.

Clubs go in cycles, we need more clubs, so these cycles don't have a negative effect on our sport in a specific region.

To facilitate more clubs we need to make maps available copyright free. We need a map database from which any approved club, school or individual can download ocd and simpler image files for their use, be it with permission from an administrator. The fee for this use needs to be clear. I recommend it be the NZOF event levy percentage, payable to the NZOF. We need to be encouraging as many people as possible to run orienteering events, we need to disperse the workload not concentrate it. Allow free events, intraschools, community groups, trainings...

New niche clubs, be they youth, rogaine, mtbo, elite, west side of town etc will develop. We should have fast tracked procedures for formalising these clubs and nzof officials active in encouraging them.

Provide the opportunities and the action will follow.

More maps, Transforming NZOF from the Generic Model:

Our sport is about maps. The production of maps is increasingly a specialised, capital investment heavy, undertaking. Most clubs lack the skill to make a mapping project happen efficently. Re-inventing the wheel is a kind way of putting it. People hate wasted time.

Map making needs to become centralised. Instead of wasting our money on Development Officer, Coaching Director and now Media person (check outcomes for the last 5 years on these) we need to have people funded to run efficient, best practice mapping projects over the country. We need to professionally apply for pub charity and other funding for our maps, religiously, from every single source available.

We need a centralised body to pass on mapping skills to interested people to club level, or to co-ordinate payment/work of fulltime mappers so appropriate people can make a decent living out of it, or overseas mappers can be brought in. We need a centralised body to manage the economics of a map for its first year or two, as it passes through its time of hosting major events.

New maps can be made in centres without an orienteering base and individuals and schools can use them to get orienteering going in their area, leading to the formation of new clubs.

Our sport and its officials need to be best structured to suit us, not a generic NSO model.

Show Profile  darren Posted: 2 February 2009, 9:52 AM  
I agree Fraser and Jamie.

Sometime ago I downloaded an e-book. I paid some money via paypal (or something similar)and was emailed a special password that would activate the download. I then had 24hrs to actually download it, or I would lose my money.

Is there any reason to stop clubs doing that with O maps?

Lets say Stamie Jewart wants to go and do some O training around Mt Victoria in Wellington while there on holiday or business, or maybe just because he lives there but can't find an old copy of the map. Wouldn't it be great if he can go to a centralised website (the NZOF site springs to mind) search for maps nearby(maybe linked with google maps?), pay $5 (or whatever, some could even be free!!!) and download a copy. There could be a variety of versions of each map. A blank copy, one with last weeks OY or O-max race...etc

Of course maps on private land...etc would not be printable, but maybe just availabl to be viewed on screen.

If the NZOF invested some money in such a system they of course could then take a percentage of sales to cover running costs.

Maybe permanent courses would become more popular with such a system set up?

Is this actually possible or am I just dreaming?

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