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national sec schools timing

Show Profile  thomasr Posted: 22 April 2007, 2:43 AM  
Just had a look at the north island schools results. Well done to greta and jack, getting the titles for the year. What a huge shame neither one is going to be at national secondary schools.
I think that the descision to have national secondary schools at the same time as JWOC is stink. What is the reason? penalising our best juniors for being selected to run for their country. Jack and Greta will now never get a chance to win a national secondary schools title. Not only this but it will give the champs a very false feel.

Its not like JWOC dates have been a secret either, how many years have we know that they will be in July 07.

I would like to know who made this descision and why they did so? There may a legitimate reason and thats fine.

This message was edited by thomasr on 22 April 2007, 10:46 AM

Show Profile  Ellmo1769 Posted: 22 April 2007, 2:50 AM  
Its all about the season Thomas.

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 22 April 2007, 3:01 AM  
They have had 4 years to win one. You are talking about missing 1 out of 5 and its not very often that a secondary school student gets selected for JWOC, why should a whole (and probably the only planned) calendar change because of 1 or 2 people every so often.

If you think the SS title is that important that you need to have a cry over it then you probably shouldn't be in the JWOC team because having your ass handed to you in Europe for the first time will really bring on the tears.

Show Profile  thomasr Posted: 22 April 2007, 9:23 AM  
it effectively undermines the whole senior competition. its also not that hard to set a date that doesnt clash with jwoc.
for the last little while thers ben at least 1 person at jwoc from school.

that attitude is one reason why we have always get dominated by the euros

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 22 April 2007, 9:52 AM  
The senior, what about the intermediate and junior, it doesn't affect them at all. You are talking about shifting a competition that attracts around 300 people at its current timing all because of 1 person that might be racing something worth 1000000 times more than the NZSS senior title.

The dates are set based on a whole lot of reasons, to fit in with school timing, semi seasonal thinking etc. If you really want an explanation as to how and why it is at that time of the year give Geoff Morrison a ring.

The attitude of thinking that and coming back for the National SS because it is the be all and end all, instead of staying on and doing a whole series of races in Europe is why Tom

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 22 April 2007, 10:12 AM  
Yeah its a shame for Greta and Jack but lets face it JWOC is going to be way cooler.

I don't see why it will make the NZSS seniors anymore meaningful. I thought M21E at Nationals was still meaningful despite the absence of Chris, Darren and Karl. Previously we have also had a World Cup in Australia clashing with Nationals...thats life.

Show Profile  addison Posted: 22 April 2007, 10:31 AM  
Thomas -

ever heard of secondary sport nz?
ever heard that they have a set calendar each year?
ever heard that it has to be a major thing to change a national secondary schools event, let alone only do it for 2 or 3 individuals?

Show Profile  James Posted: 23 April 2007, 2:03 PM  
Thomas makes a fair point, asks a fair question. A couple of negative individuals have a go at him fot it. For these individuals who regard themselves as intelligent and often portray themselves as being better than most, you think that a little constructive critisism/feedback wouldnt be beyond them? Maybe they just like being wankers?
Then in contrast, Jamie makes some really good points and brings perspective

I agree its a shame that those in the JWOC team who are still at secondary school wont be able to compete in both, but i also think its a shame for those aspiring to go to future JWOC's who will have to choose between going over to aussie and running NZSSC. Going over to aussie, running in some cool races/terrain including the aussie champs and absorb some international competition so close to home and obviously supporting our NZ team at JWOC would be great development for our up and coming juniors (at a cheaper cost than attending such events in europe).
But with the clash of NZSSC im assuming that none of juniors will get totake this opportunity. Luckily we are spoilt for big events this year with oceania champs being held in canberra later in the year, which will offer many of the benefits i discussed previously

I personally feel that the NZSSC are held in high regard, maybe because i wasnt good enough to win any other titles? But winnning the secondary school title certanly helped me, as an athlete and also helping to secure scholarships. Being able to say that im the best in NZ, rather than saying i went to JWOC and came 128th!

I agree that JWOC is a way cooler experience than any NZSSC, and staying in europe to do other big events is awesome for experience/ fun/ eye opening, but i also think that a NZSSC is the pinnicle of secondary school orienteering in NZ(as well as making the NZ team to go over to aussie) and it would be cool if the concerned individuals had the opportunity to compete for a national SS title as well as represent their country at JWOC.

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 23 April 2007, 2:15 PM  
Go fuck yourself James

Show Profile  addison Posted: 23 April 2007, 2:19 PM  
James, I wouldn't go around calling people wankers because they are giving feedback on something....

"Providing Feedback" was the term you used as an explanation for blabbing the JWOC teams before they were announced to people, now that is being a real wanker. Bet the selectors didn't appreciate it either.

This message was edited by Simon Addison on 23 April 2007, 10:21 PM

This message was edited by Simon Addison on 23 April 2007, 10:34 PM

Show Profile  addison Posted: 23 April 2007, 2:23 PM  
Whilst on the topic of NZSS Champs, historically there was a 4 year rotation between the regions which is still in place for this event.

Before Nelson (2003), when the NZSS Champs were to be held in the South Island they came forward to the first holidays (just been) and the NISS Champs and the SISS Champs were moved to July. This was to accomodate colder weather etc. I remember this in Middlemarch in 99.

If that policy was still in place for this year then it wouldn't have been an issue.

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 23 April 2007, 2:52 PM  
There you go that was an example of making a 'wanker' comment.

Just cause you dont like the feedback doesn't mean its negative. Thomas made some points, some were made back, to try and see if he could see it from another perspective, how is that negative? Then saying if he would like the full informative story to ring someone, again how is that negative? If you want to start a personal vendetta then go and do it somewhere else rather than trying to make it a point in a discussion.

A question - how many times as a discussion involved someone using an exception as an arguing point?

Show Profile  James Posted: 24 April 2007, 12:49 AM  
Simon, i didnt go 'babbling' the JWOC teams before they were announced, because i didnt know what the team would be! Im not a selector, so dont actually select the teams. I, like many others, talked about who they thought would make the team judging on their performances during trials.

Greg, thanks for your input, but i dont like fucking myself. I didnt say that i didnt like the feedback as you put it. I actually think that you brought forward good points, and your knowledge on the topic and reasoning, is far superior to mine and many others. I wasn't saying your feedback was negative, i was just saying that you were in they way in which you offered it.

hey, if the cap fits guys, wear it!

Show Profile  mark Posted: 24 April 2007, 1:16 AM  
good luck getting greg to change the way he presents his arguments.
It's hard to change life long habits.

Greg is a wanker

Show Profile  nick Posted: 24 April 2007, 1:41 AM  
Tom, seems like you've spotted yet another tangle in the generally incoherent and incomprehensible competitive structures of NZ orienteering. Yeah yeah yeah, theres all sorts of clashes and complications that "justify" the existing set-up and if you read maptalk you'll know what i think about all of that.

The thing I'd like to focus on now, because I still don't understand it, is wtf/why/how does SS orienteering exist in a vaccuum? I hear the NZSSC attracts 300 entrants and yet the spill over of these numbers into Nationals (for eg) seems to be minimal? Who are these 300 people and do we have a tractor beam that can pull them in from their separate dimension? (Bear with me, please; I recall asking this before and not reall understanding the explanations...)

In the meantime, I agree with Jamie - its not an ideal situation, but you'd have to choose JWOC as the coolest opportunity. Life is full of such dilemmas and at the end of the day its a nice problem to have.

This message was edited by nick on 24 April 2007, 9:43 AM

This message was edited by nick on 24 April 2007, 9:58 AM

Show Profile  nick Posted: 24 April 2007, 1:57 AM  
Footnore: Just after Nationals I attended the Coaching Clinic organised by the NZOF Coaching Director. It was very interesting to listen to the experiences of other clubs especially (in relation to my questions above) to Geoff Morrison from Hawkes Bay. Down there they seem to have nailed it - healthy schools participation transferring smoothly into club membership and competition.

All great stuff but definitely best saved for another thread...

Not sure but I think Darren is working on a collation of club's experiences with coaching programmes (is that right Darren?). It will be an excellent resource for clubs when its available.

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