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How about a Federation 3 Day

Show Profile  nick Posted: 15 March 2007, 11:38 AM  
I dunno if club organisers entirely lack ambition - i've certainly observed an enthusiasm at club level to make money from events to fund new maps / event formats etc...

I'm generally suspicious of the suggestion that the "market" will solve our problems... but I think its a good discussion to have. In the end I can't see that NZ has the population to sustain a competitve market for O events. I imagine NZOF would need fairly tight control over scheduling, quality standards, event fees etc... An interesting question: what impact will a private event mgt approach have on clubs?

Can't agree more about image. No matter how much the old guard may scoff, the world outside our strange little cult is overwhelmingly and irredeemably image concious... the way we dress influences people's initial perceptions of our sport and whether or not they relate to it... and my view is that if you want to attract new people you should take this into account.







Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 15 March 2007, 12:06 PM  
Are the ozzies one step ahead? Check out their 'New Publications'www.orienteering.asn/home/

Show Profile  Dave Barr Posted: 15 March 2007, 12:38 PM  
What about private map ownership too? Some clever bugger could make a map for a large event where they attempt to recover the cost of the map, then they lease that map back to the local club for events.

Show Profile  onemanfanclub Posted: 15 March 2007, 1:04 PM  
On a couple of raised sub-topics...

Entry fees: Yes, value for money is pretty good compared to other "similar" events. Entry fees for Oceania in Canberra are prob the most expensive I've seen, yet I'm still seriously considering going BUT if all major events were that high I'd probably go to less (not none, but definitely less). So there's room to move upwards, but not too much, and increases would have to be reflected in the "experience" of the event. But perhaps there's more room to make a $ than we realise, I mean I was astounded by the amount and type of spot prizes on offer at Waitangi, without a big hike in entry fees - that's the kind of thing I mean by "experience".

And as long as media officer is one of the vacant NZOF roles, there will probably continue to be a dearth of orienteering press releases crossing Fraser's virtual desk

Show Profile  Neil K Posted: 15 March 2007, 1:21 PM  
I agree we have a lot to learn from private enterprise event organisers. However I'm not so sure about not haveing a guiding hand from NZOF, clubs.

Allthough adventure racing has great publicity and media profile, it is on a decline and struggling in NZ. Several organisers have been struggling to attract numbers and there are actually very few events to do. Some of the decline is due to a couple of poor organisers, putting on crap events for expensive fees.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 15 March 2007, 1:30 PM  
The likes of the Leppin off road series seems to be popular, although I note now that the regional council is starting to play hardball with environmental issues in the parks.
Can Orienteering pick up the fall out from this or poor adventure racing events? Are these people really aware of the true extent of O?

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 15 March 2007, 4:57 PM  
Seems like this comes down to the great debate between us socialists and you greedy capitalists...

Only problem is I'm actually a capitalist, be it a realistic one that recognises some of the problems involved in a market.

If made economic sense to go and make wicked maps in wicked places (the purpose for which I started the thread) people would have done it. Sometimes infrastructure needs to be put in place to help entrepreneurs on their way, eg road, air new zealand, o maps (in the context of say Waitangi weekend).

I still think a mapping group associated with the NZOF is or could be the most effective and efficient way of creating more maps.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 15 March 2007, 5:24 PM  
I seem to relate to your ideas Jamie, maybe we are both sociocapitalists.
In summary we need the NZOF to pull whatever it takes out of their @#^&*'s and form some sort of mapping strategy for entrepreneurs and sustainability going forward. The market has risks of inconsistancy and not working as one.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 16 March 2007, 12:04 PM  
A cunning plan to get Orienteering to get some free media coverage...
If polititans such as Rodney Hide can do ballroom dancing and long distance swimming, why not orienteering. Imagine if we could set up a celebrity challenge with lots of high profile stars... FREE TV and News print coverage almost guaranteed. Election year coming up, some polititions will do almost anything, even orienteering?

Show Profile  nick Posted: 16 March 2007, 1:55 PM  
An NZOF mapping group could be a powerful growth engine. Does NZOF have the finances to throw at such a project?

Presumably NZOF would then recover its investment by licencing clubs / event promoters to use the maps for certain events... anyway, once you've got a map to use these details should be fairly easily negotiated.


Show Profile  addison Posted: 16 March 2007, 4:09 PM  
I think people are getting a bit ahead of themselves here.

Professional event organisers would never work if orienteering funded them here in NZ. What would need to happen is to apply for grants and things to subsidise the costs, which means it would go on a year by year basis and quite likely to be poorly paid.

Orienteering, as we are all aware, is one of the most labour intensive sports for per hour of competitors competition time. As numbers increase this ratio doesn't really change, as you need more courses, more people on starts etc but it does come down slightly.


For Waitangi we basically didn't have to pay for maps and a few other things. 300 people. Sure we could have increased costs a bit but hey the market isn't very big and we could have shot ourselves in the foot, we wanted to make it affordable for families and everyone to come and have a holiday and orienteer. I think I may get a return of around $1 - $1.50 for all my time I put into the event. So if that is "lining the pockets of organisers" then hey don't count me in ever again.

But personally I did not organise the event for personal financial gain, I did it as I wanted to give back to the sport that I love so much. Greg did an amazing job in Rotorua in 2006 and I knew that he couldn't do it on his own again. Once again Greg did an amazing job especially considering we got about $1 an hour for our work. What really fucked me off is the rumours I heard from certain people who were going around saying how much money we would make etc. If I did an honest account of my expenses I think you will find I actually had a $0 return per hour of work so there you go.



NZOF isn't a charity, don't treat it like one Jamie.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 16 March 2007, 6:51 PM  
I'm not treating anything Simon, I'm raising an idea to try and overcome part of the problem that you get at.

You guys ran a great event, and no one has accused you of lining any pockets.

You follow in the footsteps of shitloads of other people who have organised successful events over the years...and we all know the hours of work involved are immense, and as I have said already aren't attractive for someone trying to make a buck.

One thing which has made the last two Waitangi weekends possible has been the existence of old maps/maps not used to their max/weakened clubs. This is a great resource and good on you guys for investigating the potential and following it through.

To maintain this resource we need to keep up the production of maps. With map making becoming more onerous; higher expected technical standards, more difficult landowners, greater cost of professional mappers/less club mappers around the place. I have proposed an NZOF mapping group.

NZOF is a charitable organisation set-up to assist the clubs to make NZ O as strong as possible. NZOF is reasonably cashed up, due to event levys (and these could probably be raised further if clubs see a real return for their money..eg maps).

A NZOF mapping fund would ensure that the available mapping capital in NZ O is circulated through the system quicker, resulting in more map production than the current system (with corresponding benefits), reliant as it is one often inexperienced club mapping co-ordinators operating within strict budgetary confines.

Show Profile  addison Posted: 16 March 2007, 7:31 PM  
Sure NZOF is pretty cashed up at the moment, but this doesn't mean that clubs who are sitting on tens of thousands of dollars should rely on the NZOF for funding maps.

But fairness etc must be taken into account. We dont want certain clubs to be arguing over who got what and how certain clubs are getting shafted. Come up with a proposal if you are so keen and put it to the federation, make it fair and make it good.

I suspect the key is development and this could be a way of making it happen. But just as Rotorua has done in the past you can always apply for funding for maps from charities. I reckon apply for a few maps at once through the NZOF, taking into account club contributions and perhaps NZOF contributions... make it worthwhile.

Rather than just floating the idea Jamie take it to the next level. I have heard you for years talk about NZOF paying for mapping, now is the time to really push it and make it happen.

I reckon perhaps it could be a good compromise to make a map and let the junior squad or national squad or a combination of both run an event on there as a fundraiser, then hand the map over to the local club? At least this way there is benefit to every party concerned. The squads make money from the event. The federation pays for mapping and has development occur in areas where feasible maps dont really occur. Clubs get maps where they are not feasible to make for only them. Perhaps a clause could be that squads get to use the maps into the future for training and for fundraisers (but being reasonable)?

MMM this Waitangi bottle opener is working well.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 17 March 2007, 12:07 PM  
I like Simons idea about NZOF funding a map entirely for the squads to use for fundraising. This way, everyone is contributing, via NZOF Levies, to a good cause and the squads are doing something for their money, ie: some event organising. Everyone wins. It also removes any arguing between clubs who got financial help or whatever. Maps should only ever be funded though, if their is a special high profile event that everyone gets to experience. Remembering that the initial purpose of the the proposal is to sustain the production of new high quality maps, possibly well away from any club base. I would imagine that this does not involve lots of maps at all, maybe only one or two a year. Like Michael has said we also have a logistical problem currently in that our pool of experienced mappers willing to take on bigger projects is not growing. Most of the demand will be near clubs and so hopefully budding weekend mappers should be able to keep up with most of this, clubs may need to encourage more interested members to learn the art of mapping, many hands make light work.
More of an issue presents itself for championship maps. Professional mapping in NZ is a difficult issue. Michael has through his extreme entrepeunurial abilities has provided a fantastic service, but like he says he can't keep at it at the same level forever. It is very unlikely that anyone in NZ will become a fulltime mapper, a few have given it a go but eventually pull away, so that leaves us with semi-professional contract mappers of which there are a number. These people are often semi retired folk with a little more time on their hands. Now I am in no way criticising anyone, infact I don't even know everyone who does mapping these days, but there is a real risk here that no middle aged or younger people are choosing to commit to mapping difficult championship maps. Most senior mappers will eventually have eyesight problems and run out of steam for big projects. Plenty of people stick their hands up for the cartography as this is the easy part now with Ocad.
All is not lost, but there should be red flags flapping.
On a personal level a few years ago I was in a position of being able to fit oreinteering mapping in with my other mapping business for part of the year, unfortunately I was taking a very long sabatical from the sport. So it would be ideal for some self employed person interested in mapping to include some mapping to their business.
Currently I am too tied up with work and other commitments to take on much map work, however I am thinking about the possibility of taking leave without pay for a short number of weeks mid winter, for the sole purpose of satisfying my mapping desire and to help the sport I love. With the risk of sounding arrogant I would only do so if the terrain was very technical, and did NOT involve crashing around all day in cuttygrass or blackberries. I'm not really into re-maps either as these should be for the apprentices. As my time for mapping is limited I would not like to waste it. As most people would understand, my generation is at the childrearing/high mortgage stage and so find it impossible to take time off work for free, as most maps take a minimum of one to two weeks, so reasonable in come must be earned.
This is probably the reality we have to face to get some more people commited to mapping our biggest, newest maps in the future.
There are always overseas mappers but this usually works out much more expensive, and from what I have seen we are just as good, if not better.

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 17 March 2007, 1:23 PM  
Housten - we have a problem!

NZ O Federation Championship extravaganza. Orienteering Competition at its best. Celebrating mapping excellence on superb technical terrain. Challenging and entertaining all NZ and overseas orienteers to a variety of action-packed formats. Bought to you by the NZ Junior and Senior Elite squads and funded by the NZOF for the sustainability of new and exciting o-maps and competitions throughout NZ ... bla bla

Problem : everyone in the squads want to run in the NZ Champs don't they ?


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