 Keith
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Posted: 8 December 2004, 4:52 AM
Congrats to those selected looks like it will be a big team.
Why does the NZOF continue to ignore the JWOC selection critera that a lot of people put a lot of time into a few years back? this year the squad was again announced late and the trial rules are being ignored.
What wwas the point of making the policy if the selectors juust ignore it anyway?
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mark
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Posted: 8 December 2004, 5:54 AM
So that the selectors have an excuse to deny a person selection if they don't like that person.
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PaulS
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Posted: 8 December 2004, 7:21 AM
You can view the 'JWOC Selection Policy' at http://www.nzorienteering.com/nzof/policies/jwoc2000.htm
It obvious its not being followed to the word, but I suspect the selectors have had a lot of pressure with all the teams that needed to be named around this time. Understandable.
As for the trials EVERYONE should be running M20 or W20 with no exceptions (as this is the only real way to compare people) and from the information currently available this will not be the case at the "trials" - which are the major races at Oceania Champs. Frankly if you want to go to JWOC pull yourself out of the ANZ team and run the correct grade :-).
Unfortunately I understand one member of the interim squad will not be at the trials because of injury. This will make the final selection difficult. He has been one of the leading Juniors for some time and if he were to be denied a place in this team I would hate to think of the repercussions.
"a trial will need to be held during February for team selection. The final JWOC team will be selected by 28 February". If after the Oceania Champs it is unclear who should not be going then a trial in February is going to be the best option rather than the selectors throwing a dart and seeing what person it lands on. Perhaps the athlete in question will have recovered and be able to show his true capability.
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Martin
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Posted: 8 December 2004, 7:52 AM
What are policies for if they are not going to be used and followed? In saying this, it is a good guideline as to what to expect to happen. And reading the latest council minutes, the selectors have been piled with work lately - in the past there hasn’t been a schools team or Pinestars team to name.
It's been frustrating not knowing what dates the trials will be, although I don’t see it as a problem personally, those that have been selected in the Schools team and ANZ teams now have dual commitments, running their grade as part of the team, or competing in the 20s for JWOC selection.
I don’t believe people should have to sacrifice running in their grade for ANZ, and being in the Schools team in order to go to JWOC. I feel the selection races should be the ones where there isn’t any other major event, such as Day 1,2,5. This would mean everyone could be there. Hopefully we'll see some people changing grades.
Aim I mistaken, or weren't people who wanted to go meant to run 20s in the area champs too?
It is my understanding that two of the Interim Squad will not be fit to compete at Oceania, and will be lucky to be fit before the end of February.
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Jamie
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Posted: 8 December 2004, 8:02 AM
Not being followed to the word...Is it being followed at all?
I have seen several talented orienteers refused entry to JWOC and I don't want to see the NZ team demeaned at this competition. The current "interim" squad is completely inappropriate.
According to selection criteria, an M20 should be able to run within 125% of a M21E's k-rate. The stated most important races for selection for the interim squad are the spring area champs. To give an example of this requirement clearly not being met at the Wellington Champs two of the interim M20's were 20min behind the top elite outright...I hate to think what K rate difference this equates to I imagine it was closer to 200% than 125% and it wasn't a strong elite mens field.
The policy is there so selectors aren't personally responsible for non-selection and can't be seen to be biased in any way...but they need to follow it..
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Martin
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Posted: 8 December 2004, 9:22 AM
Seems these days, Jamie, that if you put your name down as being interested, you get put into the interim squad -
At the area champs, out of the 12 named: only 4 ran 20s; 3 ran elites; 3 ran 18s; 2 didnt go to any at all;
Plus: 2 have been competing while injured (silly?), and one hasnt raced since May, but is still named in Schools team, ANZ team and the interim squad (!!), without being asked about her fitness.
What really is the point of having an Interim Squad?
This message was edited by Martin on 8 December 2004, 5:24 PM
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Greg
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Posted: 8 December 2004, 9:56 AM
I believe the point of it was so plans could be made (cheaper flights etc) No point if one has to be dropped.
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addison
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Posted: 8 December 2004, 10:35 AM
Hopefully we will have a better indication of the time I will be having off after the surgery next friday. But anyways... time to head off for work, 12hrs of trying to stay awake!
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Neil K
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Posted: 8 December 2004, 2:47 PM
My humble opinion. If you wanna go to JWOC you should run 20's except were you have a duty to represent NZ. There is plenty enough races in the carnival for anyone to PROVE (injuries excepted) they are good enough to go to JWOC for NZ. If you missed out on our team because the dart was fired elsewhere...chances are your weren't a superstar...and didn't reach the policy requirements.
I don't think the policy requirements mean much. As long as the selectors have a reasonable idea of what standard we (the NZOF) want representing us than they should be left to it.
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Martin
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Posted: 9 December 2004, 3:56 AM
3 now definitely out due to injury
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Keith
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Posted: 9 December 2004, 4:53 AM
In my veiw the policy should be strictly followed and all people intrested in going should've run 20's. They should know of the policy and I suspect most people do.
As this is the only the fourth time the policy should've been fully used, comments like " it seems these days" are a load of rubish. The policy was extensilvly designed and drafts changed to make it satisfactory. Even if the selectors are under a lot of pressure it is no excuse. Given the lenghts of a few courses from the area champs I could select people sitting right here in about 1/2 an hour. It appears that no-one should've been selected from a brief look. (maybe martin if - he had run 20's :-)
It is the d-squads job to inform juniors of the policys, the selectors to use it, and the nzof to enforce it. It has always bugged mm in the past that the policy is not followed but as I briefly considered that i might one day go i never said anything. I think the nzof council should overule the selectors and make them follow it until it is reviewed in say 5 years.
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Neil K
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Posted: 9 December 2004, 5:16 AM
"It is a prerequisite that juniors wanting to attend JWOC will be in either the Development or National Squad. Commitment will be assessed based on their active participation in either of these squads."
Um, Why is this???
I don't know the reasons behind this requirement...I would suggest it is irrelevent. If someone is good enough to represent NZ then it doesn't matter which team they play for, which club they belong to, how much training they do, how long they have been members of the NZOF, whether they have lived most of their life in Switzerland or live in Holland or Norway..... So long as they prove at trails or other major events that they are good enough.
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addison
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Posted: 9 December 2004, 6:24 AM
"It is the d-squads job to inform juniors of the policys". Makes absolutely no sense. Your saying its my job to inform myself!
Get real Keith. It is obvious that the selection criteria isnt right. If you want to send one person to JWOC representing NZ then go ahead, I'd prefer to have people that have the potential and if the selectors believe that this international experience is going to do some good for the many JWOC's to come, then I say go ahead and select those people as long as they are not going to make a mockery of NZ. Is there any point in say having someone of great talent only being selected for there last JWOC because thats the only one that they met the selection criteria for? Surely if it identified they are talented and we have spare spots in the teams well they should be given a go.
Also your saying that everyone should have run 20's. Understood, but exceptions must be made for people running elites and for those who are injured and are under medical orders not to train and have only been allowed to compete in smaller lengthed courses for 'one-off competitions'. Thats the reason why I didnt run 20's, and basically if your going to have a go at me about it then well you can basically kiss my white ass.
Who is the 3 martin? Me Frances ... ?
Also I dont know how I really feel about having the trials on NZ's most techincal sandunes. It is probably one of the most irrelevant terrains comapred to Switzerland, but well I spose oceanias is the only true event that could be used.
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mark
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Posted: 9 December 2004, 6:45 AM
Keith said:
"As this is the only the fourth time the policy should've been fully used, comments like " it seems these days" are a load of rubish"
Mark says:
There were still trials and selections in the years before the policy was created.
Seems like these days, I'm not the only one that is full of shit.
This message was edited by mark on 9 December 2004, 2:47 PM
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jeffg
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Posted: 9 December 2004, 7:27 AM
I suspect the problem with regional champs was the requirement to run age grade for the ANZ team, the requirement to run 20s for JWOC, and the need to have schools teams contenders competing against each other. I don't envy the selectors, but one hopes that there was a degree of direction and transparency in the process for those involved, and continues to be for the trials. Otherwise how does a junior prioritise the competing interests of the schools race, the ANZ, competition for the overall Oceania champs, and JWOC trials? I would say sacrifice the overall Oceania competition, keep the Schools and ANZ races separate, and have JWOC trials on from one to all of days 1,2 and 5 (in M/W20, even for current elite runners). That makes it easier for the selectors and the young athletes involved.
Simon, the terrain may be not quite as irrelevant as you think. Weiti (day 1 and 2) is spur/gully not sand dune, and Waioneke (day 5)is inland from the dunes proper and is also described as spur/gully.
Incidentally, 4 of the named interim squad achieved the benchmark km rate at some point during the regional champs, but none on a M/W 20 course.
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Martin
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Posted: 9 December 2004, 8:06 AM
3: Simon, Frances, Amber - none competing in Oceania due to injury
there is a disturbing number of juniors injured, these are just the ones who will miss oceania. Simon's was a bicycle pedal, but could the others be linked to over training or over use and at a young age? There have been medical papers written on this in junior athletes, perhaps some are relevent to orienteering.
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