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Thoughts on relays

Show Profile  onemanfanclub Posted: 9 May 2015, 2:20 PM  
I've been intending to post a few only tenuously connected thoughts arising from setting the nationals relay ever since the dust settled, but life got a bit busy... But finally, some time after the fact, here they are:

First, I'd like to say thanks for the plenty of positive feedback on the day and since. While I was pretty happy with how things were looking when the courses were finalised, it was inevitable that going into the biggest race I've had a key role in I was going to be a bit nervy right up to when the finishers started rolling in. Also I've especially appreciated that a few people specifically mentioned the commentary. I normally avoid public speaking like the plague and have never done anything like that before, so glad that it seemed to be well received. I guess it helps a bit to have had the inside knowledge of WHERE the competitors were going to pop into view, but also a big shout out to the O-Lynx team for giving me a good idea of WHEN. Now we just need to find a way of making some of the newer stars instantly recognisable!

Second (getting more into points about relays in particular), in the lead-up I had one or two people ask me why did I volunteer to set a RELAY - didn't I know they're the hardest events to set? To which I say they are not! I guess there is still the unique challenge of trying to keep the forked controls as fair as possible, so that for example there isn't undue spread between the longest and shortest course variations, but the bits that used to make relay setting hard (producing the map for each variation, ensuring that every team was running the same 'total course' etc), at least 2 of the most-used course-setting software options now take care of for you. I'd go as far as saying a relay is now EASIER to set than any major individual races, as you effectively have far fewer courses to worry about. If you can set a well received club or OY type race, don't be afraid to tackle a relay (and wouldn't it be nice if there were a couple more chances throughout the year where we could compete club-against-club)

Almost finally - I can't help stirring up one of those favourite Maptalk wasp nests: should the mixed long relay be orange or red? In the years immediately following the birth of the current relay format, I completely got the intent of making it orange: it would increase the pool of runners each club could select from by 'allowing' more juniors and 'senior B' runners to take part. Clubs might even actively encourage quick but less experienced orienteers to come to nationals or even actively recruit such people into their clubs... But I've moved on. Under 16s are now running red in individual races, while most Under 14s you'd probably want to keep in the mixed short race for the appropriate distance, so that argument no longer applies. We just don't seem to have a pool of senior B runners coming to nationals who could bolster up the teams (and as for those dreams of active recruitment...) so that argument has hardly ever applied. Even if we did have the quick B runners, it turns out for the most case putting the experienced orienteers on an easier course doesn't level the playing field at all - they just go even faster. These were conclusions I'd come to well before this year, but knowing how much more fun I could have had putting controls 'where-ever I liked' in the rock garden area of the Hare's Run map, pretty much brought me well and truly into the red relay camp.

The only arguments I can see against are, as you'd want leg 1 of the mixed short race to stay orange (with probably looser age restrictions than current), then that effectively adds one more course to the setting-effort (still less than an individual race IMO), and that in any mass start race, technical controls can actually disadvantage the leader if following runners are still in sight.

The final question is one I don't yet have an opinion on - last year Wellington introduced a new relay class for the benefit of 'old fellas' by (if I understand right) taking out all the bits of leg 1 that make it significantly longer. I wasn't asked to provide this option this year, and it's not in the rules. But do we want it? I can see the merit, but I would also want to be sure it wouldn't detract at all from the premier status of the mixed long. If it was brought into the program as an unofficial contest, would it remain so?

Show Profile  Paul I Posted: 9 May 2015, 2:57 PM  
"and that in any mass start race, technical controls can actually disadvantage the leader if following runners are still in sight."

Conversely, do not orange controls allow an exceptionally fit runner have the upper hand. I am of the belief that red offers a fairer orienteering race, and 'should' result in closer overall results.

Show Profile  thomasr Posted: 9 May 2015, 3:12 PM  
First leg at least should be red

Show Profile  JohnR Posted: 9 May 2015, 4:44 PM  
With all the above in mind, I was dead against Nic with his first leg. My thought was every one will run the track to the left. I was so wrong--the split to the first control was fantastic to see with several options over the hill. The finish loop was fantastic where we had a clear view of the competitors. The parents could see their kids actually doing a course. Has there ever been a better relay! Well done Nic Gorman

Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 10 May 2015, 1:29 AM  
I agree with red for all long legs, for all the points Nic mentions, there are very few B runners doing the long relay and there is always the mixed short for those that do want to take part. It would also help with allowing the oldies to still be potentially useful to their club - it's hard for a W40+ to compete with W20 on orange, but on a red the balance starts to swing a little(and that goes of course for all the older grades versus the younger - M50 vs M16 etc). And I think that's good for our 16-20s as well to get them running technical courses in head to head situations such as they'll face when they get to JWOC/WOC.

Actually I don't get why W20 and W35 are allowed to run the middle leg if it was symmetric with the men (where M20 and M35 have to still run first leg), they should only be allowed on the last leg (and of course the first leg if they want. The middle leg is open to far too many - around 70% of our relay entries could do middle leg so most of them were forced onto the last leg. And if you're making competitive teams you leave your better ones on middle leg and shift the others up onto the long leg. (We only make 3-4 "best" teams and then try to make the others as even as possible rather than ranking all the way down, as aprat from being impossible to select we don't want to have teams that are going to be out for many, many hours).

So in addition to making all mixed long legs red I would recommend making the allowed legs more symmetric between men and women. So first leg M20-35 (+ whoever of course), last leg M40+ M18, W20-35, middle leg W40+, W18 and under, M16U, M55+
(obviously you can always run "up")



Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 10 May 2015, 1:32 AM  
By the way are you watching "the relay" of the year on now... (Ok it's probably jukola rather than tio but still can't go past tiomila)

Show Profile  inghamma Posted: 10 May 2015, 2:55 PM  
Following on from Jenni's comments I do think a bit of a reassessment of the 'Long" relay is in order. It has seemed to me for a number of years now (probably because I am now older and slower) that this has effectively become an elite relay. By that I mean that there are very, very few competitive teams that have runners outside the elites and top juniors. This was an almost inevitable consequence of the W21's moving to the 3rd leg and allowing W20's on the 2nd leg. What it does appear to have done is mean that anyone over 40 is really there just to make up the numbers and has no real incentive to participate. Contrast this to the situation before the rule change when top teams really did spread across the age grades.

I certainly don't advocate changing the format for the top teams - the competitive nature of the relay at the top is fabulous to see - but perhaps it's time to introduce another level (class if you like) which is a little more restrictive in terms of who can run which leg. Just as a suggestion how about a class that allows only one M/W20 or M/W21 and maybe used the present 2nd and 3rd legs with the addition of a further slightly shorter one? This would allow many more people to be in relatively competitive teams and remove the long tail in Mixed A that we see at present.

So, rename the present Mixed A as NZ ELite Relay, and yes you could then make the legs all red standard, and introduce the NZ Club Relay, as above, which caters for a wider cross-section of the club fraternity. Perhaps we might even get more people turning out.

Show Profile  fraser Posted: 13 May 2015, 1:21 PM  
The relay should absolutely be red. It is a complete embarrassment that our national relay champs is orange level and it must be the most out-dated and counter productive rule in New Zealand. Let's get this changed as soon as possible. No one is going to stand up and defend the relay to stay orange are they?

I discussed the nationals relay with a few people at nationals and glad it is now being discussed here too. The difficulty level needs to change as the first priority but the event has other problems too with entry numbers consistently less than the other nationals events.

It is a shame because to me a proper relay can be the most enjoyable format in orienteering. Just look at Tiomila and Jukola.

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 14 May 2015, 1:57 AM  
One third of entries for long distance didn't enter the relay. It would be interesting to find out some of the common reasons.

Here's who entered compared to the long distance, by age groups:
<16: 82% (11 didn't enter)
16-20: 88% (9)
Elites 83% (6)
Open/not-elite: 31% (20)
40+ 65% (40)
60+ 34% (40)

Based on that alone, introducing a club relay would be viable if it would appeal to those who didn't enter.

Some other numbers from the nationals relay entries this year:
- 70% entered long relay, 30% short relay
- in the long relay, 25% entered leg one, and there was an even split between legs 2 & 3

Show Profile  mcroxford Posted: 14 May 2015, 5:20 AM  
If the 2016 National Relay Champs are to change then what are the deadlines for making the change to the relevant ONZ Rules 5.7 and 5.8?

I agree that there should be a separate elite competition running red. I like the separation between the NZ Elite Relay and the NZ Club Relay. The latter should have only one elite/MW20 per team. This caters for smaller clubs who can't field an 'elite' team.

Leg Restrictions Win time Difficulty

NZ Elite Relay
1 Open 30 mins Red
2 No M21E, No M20A-35A 30 mins Red
3 Open 30 mins Red

NZ Club Relay - Long
1 Open 30 mins Orange
2 No E classes, No M18A-50A, 30 mins Orange
3 No E classes, No M20A-35A 30 mins Orange

NZ Club Relay - Short
1 No E classes, No M16A-M55A 25 mins Orange
2 No M14A or above, No W14A or above, all C Classes 15 mins White
3 No E classes, No M16A–60A, No W16A–50A 20 mins Yellow

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 14 May 2015, 12:30 PM  
How is creating another 'grade' that even fewer clubs can take part in actually going to solve anything, apart from wet your own interest?

Swapping and changing who can do which leg isn't going to solve the problem, it will just shift it, the majority of clubs in NZ just dont have the people to be competitive with a set grade structure. The past 7 years results show that only the biggest clubs have been placing (with the exception of HV and lesser extent OBOP that had the right combos with limited numbers)

2015 PAPO NW NW WOC HB HB
2014 PAPO CM NW ? ? ?
2013 PAPO HV NW PAPO PAPO WOC
2012 WN HV PAPO PAPO HB AOC
2011 PAPO HV OBOP WOC HB AOC
2010 WN PAPO HV NW OBOP CM
2009 NW AOC PAPO NW PAPO TA

One option could be to have a min/max formula like some relays overseas have, where the 3 ages (age, grade age, or points allocation per grade) are added together, and limit(s) set for what the minimum and/or maximum for the team is. Should be able to be designed so that if you are wanting a higher grade junior, then to balance an older grade senior would need to be included etc.

And should be Red - its the National Champs not a bloody joke

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 14 May 2015, 7:35 PM  
I think we should give credit for the intent to maximise numbers in the relays, by making them do-able by as many orienteers as possible. There are at least two constraints - the difficulties of putting willing but less capable orienteers onto suitable legs, and the workload on the course planners.

It may be that organising clubs can now contemplate another three sets of courses, or other changes. But I doubt if the navigation level is what is holding back the mostly older orienteers who currently pass. More options would just be a better fit to the range of abilities. But embarrassment? Joke? Tiomila and Jukola have unforked legs don't they? And what about the current interest in yellow-level urban orienteering?

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 14 May 2015, 7:40 PM  
In the US, relays are based on points by age

Ages 17-20 or 35-49 receives 1 point
Ages 15, 16 or 50-59 receives 2 points
Under 15 years of age or 60 and older receives 3 points
A female orienteer receives 2 points, in addition to any age points.
Examples: 15-year old female = 4 points; 47 year old male = 1 point; 23 year old male = 0 points
Team point categories are 4-point, 8-point, and 12-point.

(They have a 4 person relay)

The three different relays then have a mix of course length and difficulty.

Show Profile  mcroxford Posted: 15 May 2015, 6:01 AM  
Perhaps we are looking at it wrong. Why not have an open red relay for all three legs with the only criteria being at least one woman. The other course will be as per the Mixed short format. We accept that the forest relays are not so popular in NZ - for instance where is the support for participation when the prize giving is over when athletes are still finishing their course.

Instead we split the Nationals into Urban and Forest and all the benefits and problems that go with it. But introduce a Sprint relay. The Sprint Champs can be three events. Sprint - Night - Sprint Relay. The Forest Middle - Long - Relay.

Show Profile  andrew b Posted: 16 May 2015, 5:26 AM  
Nice to see a discussion about the relays. I have been lucky/unlucky enough to have set a number of them over the years at all levels.

Funnily enough except for the large number of courses required the easiest to get right was the Oceania Champs because you weren't trying to shoehorn a large group into just 3 different courses. Imagine setting an event for 150 runners of all ages on those 3 courses and not expecting the time spread between them to to be huge.At Woodhill a few years ago we had to have Leg 1 on the Long Relay at 6km to get the 30min winning time correct and consequently the slower runners who were required to run that leg to make up teams had a longer race than they did in the Long earlier in the weekend.

Certainly adding a 3rd relay between our current two would allow most runners to at least get a race that would suit their abilities. How you make up the entry requirements of those 3 relay groups would also be important.

I personally like the USA idea which allocates points for each entrant based on their age and gender. If you did have 3 Relays like this, for anyone who entered a Red level Course during the Champs, you could realistically have a 4 person race where all the teams run a similar distance on each relay because even if a team had 1 leg done very quickly by an Elite the other higher pointed runners would bring the average time back of each team. Doing it this way you would really only be looking for an overall winning time rather than needing to have one particularly long leg to satisfy the Elite runners at the expense of others who ran that leg. At the end of 4 days racing I am not sure that the race actually needs to be overly long and 90 min between 4 runners would work well.

That would leave the current Short relay as an outlier but it actually seems to work well and could be open to anyone who had run an Orange and below course during the Long/Middle with a similar format as now.

There's no question we need to revisit the difficulty level as well. The Relays work well if the runners are split well via the forks rather than someone getting badly lost. Making the courses a light Red (strong controller required) would make that forking a lot more interesting and allow the planner a lot more latitude for legs and site selection and hopefully would result in more interesting racing and courses.

And finally to put a cat amongst the pigeons The Auckland region had its highest entry numbers for the Club relays last year. Why? They were a Sprint format with very close racing all over in less than an hour! Maybe that would work at a National level as well...

Show Profile  AllanJ Posted: 16 May 2015, 12:44 PM  
Has anybody bothered asking why they don't do the relay? Maybe it's not because of the format but because they can't be bothered with it - a bit like why some people don't enter sprints. Personally I'd prefer a sprint relay. Would also help those who need to leave early, especially if it was held on the sprint map which is not usually miles away in some forest or farm.


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