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The Slump on catching features

Show Profile  rossmaxmo Posted: 22 November 2012, 12:14 AM  
Bryan, no-one said anything about Geoff's or Stuarts skill's (I think they're great), or Lidar for that matter (that's not the only technology used in mapping nowadays).

ISSOM doesn't have any specifications for Classic (which is now called Long Distance) or middle, ISSOM is for sprint orienteering.

Assuming you meant ISOM, though the specifications may not have changed since 2000, mapping styles and standards have. Despite this the Slump is a hand-drawn map converted to OCAD with re-fieldwork. The photgrammetry used is from 1993. I think what people are concerned about is how the Slump will stand up to international expectations when it is so old.

The OCAD map of the Slump is good, but it's not perfect. For competitions such as a World Cup race, it needs to be. For a world cup, it should be mapped specifically for the event, and I believe that is the issue here. The current version of the slump map was mapped at 1:15000, which has a different symbol size and will of course affect how the mapper interprets and draws the terrain. In a detailed area such as the Slump it would be difficult to fit in a lot of the symbols and some areas would no doubt have had to be over-simplified (by middle distance standards). Back to ISOM, the Slump was mapped close to the book, but some things were tampered with in OCAD such as symbol sizes. This is not allowed without express permission from IOF. I am guessing that these changes will have been un-done for World Cup however.

But wait! That's not all! There are other things about the map that should be improved for a World Cup. With the old map, there are some contours that end, there are taglines in places that point the wrong way. There are many cases where there is a distinctive tree symbol 419.0 used when it should be 420.0, the small cliffs are all currently drawn with the line symbol 203.1 which is technically OK, but many cliffs don't align with contours like they should (so looking at the map you have no idea which side of the line is the face of the cliff and which is the top). The small cliff symbol is used a lot, and is quite bulky. The area symbol 202.0 is more commonly used in standard practice for the mapping of cliffs. There are other ISOM problems, such as green stripe over scattered trees. There are several small OCAD errors such as small gaps of white between open areas.

I am sure a lot of these problems have been remedied for the World Cup races, but I'm also sure that not all of them have. The Slump has been mapped well, and it has been up to standard for what it has been used for previously, but there is only so much you can do to update a map, at some point you have to start fresh. I think that when the area was chosen for a world cup, that should be the time.

So, that's the long and uncensored version of my earlier comment "I'm disappointed that the area wasn't mapped from scratch for the World Cup. Mapping technologies and styles have improved/changed a lot since that map was first made."

Show Profile  rossmaxmo Posted: 22 November 2012, 12:21 AM  
^ Don't know what this has to do with Catching Features.. but meh!

Show Profile  Bryan Posted: 22 November 2012, 1:25 AM  
Thanks for your clarification and picking up my faux-pas (classic,ISSOM instead of long/middle, ISOM).

The new Slump maps are specifically made for the World Cups event and with be ISOM and follow requirements for a World Cup (symbols will be standard). Many changes made. IMHO to start from 'scratch' when the map was already quite good was not required.

Show Profile  rossmaxmo Posted: 22 November 2012, 1:48 AM  
I rather meant mapped specifically for the world cup (from scratch). I know you're a good mapper Bryan, and I have no doubt that a lot of changes have been made. I'm sure everything will be OK world cups (well I hope so for NZ orienteering's reputation, it would be nice to get people coming back). But still, to go from 'quite-good' to perfect with regards to updating a map, it is often easier to start from scratch. It's not like the Oceania/World Cup competitors haven't paid for it.

Show Profile  rossmaxmo Posted: 22 November 2012, 5:23 AM  
Michael moved this strayed convo over to the Mapping thread.

To get things back on track, well kind of (A CF player that's run on the Slump), how about young Callum Herries about to overtake Matt Ogden on the catching features world rankings? Next Junior world champ?? :D

Show Profile  Jymbo Posted: 22 November 2012, 5:26 AM  
Ross, aren't you meant to be mapping

Show Profile  Dwayne Posted: 22 November 2012, 6:06 AM  
Yeah - When will Splash Planet be on Catching Features?

Show Profile  Chris Forne Posted: 22 November 2012, 7:08 AM  
Well, I think it sucks when so much is known about the competition area. Your example of Fabian Hertners' preparation for the sprint in Trondheim just highlights to me the problems of having too much information available. It just doesn't seem right.

Show Profile  SteveO Posted: 22 November 2012, 7:58 AM  
I see NZ has dropped slightly below Norway in the Catching Features ranking so we're now only third. Is this an unintended consequence of having Oceania / World Cup here in a few weeks, all our CF guns are out doing some physical training instead? Or does this happen every year at this time as the Scandinavians retreat inside and rediscover their PCs?

Show Profile  theoman Posted: 22 November 2012, 8:19 AM  
Cherries is boss at cf. I suck these days, might retire from my online career.

Show Profile  rossmaxmo Posted: 22 November 2012, 9:20 AM  
@Chris - This sort of race preparation with old maps has been going on for years. I'm sure our seasoned veterans plotted courses and measured lengths and route choices with string etc. There have been old pdf maps available for big competitions for years, and they are pretty easy to bring up in OCAD or Illustrator. You can even adjust a scan of an old map to the right scale and use that.

It may suck, but it's been happening for a while and no-one has kicked up enough of a fuss for event organisers or the IOF to do anything about it. You'd have to set up a huge petition which Europeans would be very unlikely to sign when a lot of their success comes from better team management than other countries. Even then, I don't see a way for information to be contained properly. There's some countries (that of course I won't mention) that would exercise fair-ply if they were to forbid the use of old maps and other existing data.

If they are re-using an old map for a big competition there is no way for organisers to control the information people get other than to keep the courses and map updates under-wraps. Then it is only fair that everyone has the same info made available to them.

At the end of the day, I don't think having a copy of the Slump map will help anyone too much. You still have to be able to orienteer at high speed in detailed terrain. And hey, if you mess it up, you can just follow everyone in the chasing start!

Show Profile  rossmaxmo Posted: 22 November 2012, 9:22 AM  
*that I wouldn't trust to exercise fair-play

Show Profile  theoman Posted: 22 November 2012, 9:25 AM  
Yea, having a chasing start on a farmland map is just asking to have your groins rubbed raw. So bring your vaseline!

Knowing the map infront of you wont be terribly helpful, however knowing the runners infront of you will be way more important. Is he strong up hills? Weak on the downhills? Maybe we should ask the Oceania organisers to provide information on every athlete so that we can manage our attacks during the chasing start in a timely and less self destructive manner.

Show Profile  Greig Posted: 23 November 2012, 3:31 AM  
I reckon you are hindering yourself Chris. It seems like an important part of preparation for an important event. There are lots of things that can be done to improve ones performance at a big event. Physical training, mental training, technical skills navigation, and familiariasation with the terrain that you will be racing in. Why on earth wouldn't you try and find out as much about where you are going to race as possible. Finding out just how fast the forests are, what type of vegetation you will encounter whether straightlining it or wide route choices important etc. All these things help you do better in the race.

To want to ban it is like saying I don't think people should be able to do interval training as it's making them too fast.

It's the same for rogaines or adventure racing. I would have thought most serious teams would check out google earth to find out the types of terrain whether ridges or valleys are best for travel. Reading tramping guides of the area, trying to find pictures on line or the terrain etc.

Even if a race is on a new map a lot of the above things can be done still.

Show Profile  darren Posted: 23 November 2012, 4:06 AM  
The 6 P's. Perfect Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

I think its just a sign of the times with all of the tools and information now available to us. Its a matter of doing everything you legally can to get the best result you can. The IOF will never ban this sort of thing as it would be impossible to police. I think its just a matter of accepting that its part of the game.

At the end of the day playing a bit of catching features will only ever have a minor benefit in the overall scheme of things. The winner will always be the one who can run around the course and find the little orange and white flags in the quickest time.

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