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Rule changes...

Show Profile  Alistair Posted: 5 October 2005, 11:51 PM  
Surprised nobody else has brought up this document for discussion since it's been sitting on the NZOF web-site for a couple of days at least.

...especially the new relay format...!

Show Profile  Keith Posted: 6 October 2005, 1:58 AM  
I have a few thoughts

1) The relay needs to be changed, but I can't see the format working, 5 legs would lenghten the day substantially. How would you have splits on the white course on the second leg?

2) All A grade controllers should have had to attend a NZOF controllers clinic, why would you change this. Training should always go hand in hand with experience. Even the most experienced controler can always learn something at a clinic.

3) Why should the elite course have a shorter winning time at Area champs than at nationals, seems very strange.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 6 October 2005, 6:35 AM  
Wanna see how things are changed in NZ orienteering....;-). Note the just reply "yes" if you are happy bit.

1) This proposal seems ill thought out, I would suggest that someone has gone into the process thinking that the relay teams need to be bigger.

The reasoning that men and women need to be split up seems fair enough, and a womens only grade could be great, but why the five legs?

A few thoughts: Why can't we just have a relay with red courses - The top junior,elite and vet from each club? Lets not turn national relays into some type of family event! Is it proposed to completely drop the current b grade event?

2) Dodgy controllers seem to slip through the cracks in both systems, I advocate an approach of constant awareness and apraisal.

3) Sounds good, would be happy to have an extra 10 on the elite time at nationals as previously discussed on this forum

4) Sounds fair enough, but where is the proposal for 10year age grades for vets? Does everyone still want a certificate?

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 6 October 2005, 6:47 AM  
The relay under this proposal is just going to turn it into more of an event for the biggest clubs. Small clubs are stuggling to have relay teams with 3 correct/competitive legs.

Show Profile  thomasr Posted: 6 October 2005, 12:31 PM  
relays should stay at three.
Why do people want to change things that are fine at the moment? The rest of the world has three (i know there are some big exceptions jukola, tiomila etc) but whats the standard worldwide should be the standard in nz

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 6 October 2005, 1:11 PM  
relays arent fine at the moment... as the document says, they are dominated by men's teams. Something with the relays needs to change.

Show Profile  HeadHoncho Posted: 7 October 2005, 1:34 AM  
Thomas said:

"Why do people want to change things that are fine at the moment?"

Are you referring to:
(a) relays
(b) nationals date, or
(c) 18 and 20 grades?

(sorry, couldn't resist) :-)

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 7 October 2005, 2:08 AM  
what does "fine" mean?

Show Profile  addison Posted: 7 October 2005, 3:08 AM  
I think the relays are alright at the moment. They probably need 'fine tuning' but do they really need a complete overhaul?

I personally love it how at the Nationals down in HB there were so many teams running against each other and there was a lot of competition for places. Small clubs are struggling to field a competitive team as it is already, please dont hinder them anymore.

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 7 October 2005, 3:21 AM  
the problem: women are not catered for in the national relays

the solution: a) new relay for women b) change current relays
its that simple

how about keeping a fine tuned version of the current short relay, and then having 3-men relay and 3-women relays?

wonder how that would work, seems like at least 1 extra leg (white course) is needed to cater for the amalgamation of long and short relays into 1 .

This message was edited by Martin on 7 October 2005, 11:24 AM

Show Profile  Lizzie I Posted: 7 October 2005, 9:49 AM  
I don't see why the relay format needs to be changed so drastically. It's true that it needs to be altered to also cater for women- how about all legitamite teams must have atleast one women in them? Doesn't matter what leg they are on, and it might not fix all of the problems, but surely its better than a 5 leg relay?

Show Profile  onemanfanclub Posted: 9 October 2005, 5:47 AM  
I haven't had time to read the discussion document, but I imagine the proposed relay format is as described to me by Robbie.

I'm firmly in the camp of the relay could use a bit of tinkering but no wholesale changes. It's building up a nice tradition, and from the angle of an utterly-amateur-sports-writer I reckon it's a lot easier to hype races that have a bit of tradition to them.

What sort of tinkering? Ideas that have made the most sense to me are: teams must be mixed sex, or much more flexible leg-eligibility for women, or seperate men/mixed/women classes but all running the same relay (less preferable because it effectively breaks one big race into three).

Incidentally, while I wouldn't call the current rules fair as such for women, I do not rule out the possibility of a mixed team winning under them - think how close Wellington came three years in a row (see, that's what I mean by building tradition!) and I can't think of any men they could have swapped for Gillian to make the difference.

Show Profile  robbie Posted: 28 October 2005, 7:13 AM  
Thankyou for all your input. The clubs are also responding with similar messages. Yes the relay is likely to change but not the way the tech committee thought.How about following the elite format. dividing nz into three divisions with age grades and three legs.

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 28 October 2005, 7:22 AM  
It depends on what the relay is trying to cater for, clubs or individuals?

Show Profile  onemanfanclub Posted: 22 January 2006, 4:43 AM  
Obviously spending all week every week alone in the bush gives me too much time to think, as I just can't help giving this dead horse another good flogging...

What I've been contemplating this week is the impact that having a women's class and a "men's" (in reality mixed/open) class in the mixed long relay would have, and I think the positives outweigh the negatives. (Mixed short would remain the same)

Based on recent nationals turn-outs (from memory - I don't have any figures with me - excuse me if I'm rounding numbers up a bit too optimisticly) you'd have maybe about 60 club teams in the mixed long relay representing most clubs, with perhaps 10 clubs in with a chance of winning. Introduce a women's class, and you might initially have 50 teams in the mens, without reducing the number of clubs represented or capable of winning, and up to 20 womens teams (the increase in total comes at the expense of the mixed short) from perhaps 10-12 clubs. The likely winners would come from just a few clubs (CM, PAPO, NW? on current "talent distribution") but at least 5 other clubs would have at least an outside chance (A, RK, HB, HV, W). The spread between first and last in both classes would be about the same. If you think of the ratio (for want of a better word) between male and female classes in terms of participation, intensity of competition, and depth, then I think this would compare favourably to other sports in NZ.

The biggest negative is that women from smaller clubs are still (if not more) disadvantaged in that if they want to run in a club team they are forced into either the mens or mixed short race. Or they could encourage more women from their club to come to nationals.

Two other things: while there was good reason for making the mixed long relay orange (so that adult B runners and the under 16s could be slotted into teams) we haven't really see many clubs making use of this over the years, and under 16's are running red now anyway. So I think the mixed long COULD be made red.

The other is that it would be good if orienteers that are living in NZ, members of a NZ club, but not NZ residents in the legal sense could run for their club. But only one allowed per team. It should be possible to write a rule in such a way that allows for the likes of someone like Carsten, Sara or Piret, and maybe also exchange/international students here for a full year but doesn't allow dodgy clubs to sign up as new members holidaying European elites the night before the relay as happened one year!

Whatever changes are being contemplated, 2007 will be the 10th anniversary of the current relay format. If we were to tinker rather than make wholesale changes, then doesn't that seem an appropriate target date to introduce a new look? =)




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