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Junior Superseries 2005

Show Profile  Andrew M Posted: 18 November 2004, 8:56 PM  
Hi all,

I am keen to get a Junior Superseries off the ground in 2005.

Here are some of my ideas at the moment, feel free to comment.

Concept:

Series is run to encourage competition and stronger grades within Junior Orienteering in New Zealand. The competition would run from January to July culminating in a final race at the National Secondary School Champs. This would strengthen the currently tenuous link between the school and club scene.

The only grades to count would be M18A and W18A. I assume that keen M/W20’s would be running up in the Senior Superseries.

Events included would be a combination of Club and Secondary School sanctioned events. The corresponding grades for the Secondary School events would be Senior Boys and Senior Girls Championship.

Events:

10 events running from Jan-July, best 6/10 to count towards final score.

1.) Oceania Sprint - Carrington - 7th Jan
2.) Oceania Middle Distance - Stillwater - 8th Jan
3.) Australia / New Zealand School Challenge – Stags Roar – 11th Jan

4.) National Championship - Sprint - Te Aute College - 25th Mar
5.) National Championship - Long Distance - 26th Mar
6.) National Championship - Middle Distance - 27th Mar

7.) Canterbury Championship - Long Distance - 23rd Apr
8.) Canterbury Championship - Middle Distance - 24th Apr

9.) North Island Secondary School Champs - Individual 29th Apr
10.) National Secondary School Champs - Individual - 22 Jul

Promotion and other stuff:

I am willing to create a simple web site to publish results and reports. I plan to work with the organiser of the Senior Superseries to promote the series at events throughout the yeat. Hopefully keen juniors would step into captain the junior teams, and also work with the elites in their region. In the short term the Senior Superseries captains can nominate potential junior teams. http://www.geocities.com/centralmagic/juniorteam.html

There would also be a team competition running throughout the series. The teams would be based around the same regions used for the Senior Superseries (Northern, Central, and Southern). The top 3 boys and 3 girls from each region would count towards the team score.

Australia has recently organised a Junior National League, but the rules are quite different. http://www.earthsci.unimelb.edu.au/%7Eblair//orienteering/olhome.html

The most interesting difference is that they appear to make juniors run in the Senior National League events and then calculate results for the juniors who competed. NZ doesn’t currently have enough M/W20’s to make this work. In the short term I think NZ is better off focusing on getting one of the Junior grades strong, then working with stronger M/W20 grades in the future.

Using a combinations of School and Club events assumes that there are no M/W18A's who have left school? I presume that this would be a glitch in the system, because there will be 18 year olds who have left school.

These are some of my ideas at the moment. Juniors and other interested parties feel free to comment, or email me your suggestions.

Adios Andrew.
ajmccarthy [at] hotmail.com

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 18 November 2004, 10:43 PM  
"Great minds think alike" - I had a similar idea part way through the year, working in much the same way.

The Oceania Sprint O would more than happily accomodate a Junior 'Super Series', online entry is available at www.maptalk.co.nz/sprintrace/ so check it out now!

i'd agree that M/W20 would run up in the Senior league (when we get more m/w20s moving up), on a good day we challenge Ralph for the smallest grade.

A few comments/queries:
1) at oceania, will the senior boys/girls schools teams be running the same course at M/W18A respectively? This would need to be the case to include this event

2) where do the intermediates fit in? some of them run M/W18 in club events.

3) Perhaps use the National Secondary School Relays also: top 3 teams earn points for their region??

Off the top of my head I can think of a very strong Northern (boys) team:
Guys: Tom Reynolds, Daniel Stott, Sam McNally, Andrew Peat, Ciaran Murphy, Alistair Long, Simon Jager.
Gals: Tineke Berthelsen, Melanie Michels, Imogen Scott (not sure of age), plus there's a group of girls from Epson Girls who are really keen.
No doubt there will be others from Schools who could be inticed to come along - pity there isnt a major schools event right at the start of the year to advertise the series at.

I dont think the fact that some people will have left school will be too influencial, given that for 8 of the 10 races you dont need to be at school to compete. if need be people could run the courses after the schools event, the courses are regularily open for all to have a run at the end of the day.

I say bring it on!

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 19 November 2004, 9:49 AM  
Looks good. Better clear with Geoff M about having the final at the SS Champs. It might detract from the school competition, but I hope he would see it as a plus. Talk to Derek M about a suitable points system which needs to relate to typical field sizes, he's an expert there. A particular issue is how many events are going to count, since there probably won't be travel money and you want it decided on ability not attendance. Leave relays out until the individual is up and running. Do some trial calculations based on last year.

Show Profile  addison Posted: 19 November 2004, 10:47 AM  
A very good idea Andrew. Perhaps for each competition, some sort of joint team transport and accomodation can be organised to help get people along. I know that for example, a school kid from Hamilton who knows basically jack-all south islanders would hesitate to travel to the Canterbury Champs. If something was organised, would make it so much easier. Just a thought.


Bring it on!


Show Profile  Martin Posted: 19 November 2004, 12:51 PM  
I worked it out for 2003 and 2004.
2003 using the following:
Cant Champs
Cant Champs Day2
NISSC
NZSSC
NZ Classic
NZ Middle
NZ Sprint
Anzac 4day (total result)

with anzac.................................without anzac
Amber Morrison 81................... Amber Morrison 69
Sarah Grey 76............................Sarah Grey 67
Rita Homes 54...........................Rita Homes 39
Jayne Shuker 49.......................Jayne Shuker 39
Hayley Oates 41........................Hayley Oates 33
Georgia Whitla 32.....................Lizzie Ingham 32
Lizzie Ingham 32.......................Georgia Whitla 32
Rhonda Thayer 20...................Rhonda Thayer 20
Amy Hoffman 12.......................Amy Hoffman 12

Martin Peat 81.........................Martin Peat 69
Simon Addison 68..................Simon Addison 58
Andrew Whiteford 44..............Richard Glover 38
Robert Paterson 42.................Andrew Whiteford 37
Richard Glover 38....................Robert Paterson 33
Tane Cambridge 32.................Tane Cambridge 32
David McCarthy 32..................David McCarthy 32
Mitchell Ramsden 31..............Mitchell Ramsden 31
Ross Morrison 27....................Rhys John 15
Rhys John 15............................Ross Morrison 12

Field size: ................... Male.....Female
Cant Champs................0.................3
Cant Champs Day2 .....1.................3
NISSC.............................14...............5
NZSSC............................18..............8
NZ Classic....................... 9...............6
NZ Middle.........................9................6
NZ Sprint.........................15...............11
Anzac 4day.......................7................5

Comments:
Not much variation, although Ross evidently misses out not being at school (and running elite for some races - probably the major reason)

Smaller field at Anzac does not have a huge influence, as the top competitors were all there. V small fields down south compensates for them not travelling up north (??)

This message was edited by Martin on 19 November 2004, 2:08 PM

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 19 November 2004, 1:04 PM  
2004
2003 using the following:
Cant Champs
Cant Champs Day2
NISSC
NZSSC
NZ Classic
NZ Middle
NZ Sprint
Southern 6day, days 2,4,5 (randomly picked, to mirror the 3 days chosen at Oceania)

with S6day.............................no S6day
Lizzie Ingham 79..................Rita Homes 40
Tessa Ramsden 70...............Sarah Gray 35
Rita Homes 52........................Tineke Berthlesen 34
Erika Boland-Bristow 38.......Frances Peat 34
Georgia Whitla 37..................Erika Boland-Bristow 28
Sarah Gray 35........................Amber Morrison 27
Tineke Berthlesen 34,...........Ane Tinnannsvik 20
Frances Peat 34 .....................Hayley Oates 18
Jess Davis 30.........................Martina Kucerova 16
Amber Morrison 27................Katie Scott 16
Ane Tinnannsvik 20...............Rhonda Thayer 16
Hayley Oates 18 .....................Lizzie Ingham 15
Martina Kucerova 16 .............Melanie Michels 10
Katie Scott 16
Rhonda Thayer 16

Daniel Stott 63 .......................Sam McNally 46
Andrew Peat 50 .....................Richard Glover 43
Riki Cambridge 47 ................Robert Patterson 40
Sam McNally 46 ,...................Daniel Stott 39
Richard Glover 43..................Riki Cambridge 32
Robert Patterson 40..............Rhys John 27
Rhys John 27.........................Daniel Barnfield 26
Daniel Barnfield 26................Aiden Ellmers 19
James Sherriff 20...................Daniel McCormack 16
Aiden Ellmers 19...................Simon Addison 15
Daniel McCormack 16..........Thomas Reynolds 12
Simon Addison 15.................Paul Smith 12
Thomas Reynolds 12.............John Aitken 10
Paul Smith 12

field sizes:....................Male.....Female
Cant Champs................ 2............ 3
Cant Champs Day2 ......2............ 2
NISSC .............................12.......... 9
NZSSC:.......................... 19 ...........8
NZ Classic: ....................11 ...........9
NZ Middle: ......................11........... 9
NZ Sprint:....................... 24 ...........20
Southern6, day2: ...........3 .............5
Southern6, day4:.......... 2 ...............3
Southern6, day5: ..........1............... 5

Comments:
V small fields influenced standings heaps!!! so there'll need to be some way of taking the size into account.

putting the S6day aside, and looking at the results without it (which appear to be much better in my view): you miss out big time for running in a different grade, and again we see someone who isnt at school (simon) not very high up in the ranks.

As the events taken are pretty much the same each year, and the field sizes havent altered dramatically (increased slightly), it would be fair to say competition in 2004 has been much closer, with the top four all within 10 points - all the more incentive to turn up to that extra event

This message was edited by Martin on 19 November 2004, 2:11 PM

This message was edited by Martin on 19 November 2004, 2:12 PM

Show Profile  addison Posted: 19 November 2004, 2:22 PM  
Perhaps a good option for another weekend, is Queens Birthday Weekend. Maybe take Canterbury champs out? Although this will be unfair on the southern competitors. I reckon that for the grade to count on a given day it needs to have a minimum field number given to it, eg if it has 5or less competitors it is excluded from the overall competition

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 19 November 2004, 2:45 PM  
Get a Job martin you obviously have too much time on your hands

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 19 November 2004, 4:37 PM  
took 10 min greg, spreadsheets are wonderfull. and working on the job thing, the engineering work requirements are really specific

Show Profile  PaulS Posted: 22 November 2004, 2:40 PM  
This is a brilliant idea. What do we need to do to get it up and running? I'm sure us juniors will be keen to see a competiton throughout the year.

The mix of events looks good, although there is only four M18s currently entered in oceania... (The strong M16 grade makes up the majority of the orienteers mentioned to be in the teams). They are likely to be disadvantaged intially, compounded further by them likely to run intermediate at school champs, and also not going to Canterbury Champs. And apart from the sprint event, I reckon most of them will opt to run M16 at nationals. So, the competition next year, in the guys, will be really be amongst four people + south islanders (as far as I know). This does not mean that the series will be successful: it will create healthy rivaly not only among individuals but regions.

****

"Gals: Tineke Berthelsen, Melanie Michels, Imogen Scott (not sure of age), plus there's a group of girls from Epson Girls who are really keen." How could you forget Francis, Martin? Are you suggesting she is giving up orienteering??

Show Profile  Dave Mcc Posted: 22 November 2004, 3:26 PM  
I think that the junior superseries is a great idea and one that has been brewing for ages. It not only provides the juniors with regular quality competition against one another it also provides a vital link between schools and clubs. The fact that it would just be M18/W18 is important because this is roughly the time many leave school unless the cabbages. IT has a sort of flow on and opens new doors for those who just left the schools comp in the middle of the year and want to do more oing.

I feel at the moment clubs within New Zealand dont do enough to harness the potential from schools within their areas. The series final at Secondary Schools nationals would I think be pivatol to its success. Get a few top ranking elites along to add to the mix and you got yourself a spectacle with lots of tension and excitement if things go down to the wire which everyone loves of course.

The superseries at present is really wicked with lots of interregion comps going on and having one for juniors sounds magnifico. Like everyone else has said BRING IT ON! Even though I past 18 and i no longer at school (last exam today...woohoo) I can truly see its potential for future champions making the jump from schools to clubs.

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 22 November 2004, 4:00 PM  
The Northern Junior Super Series team is underway with Andrew, Ciaran and Tom competing respectably in the SuperSeries Relay at CD Champs.

Paul, Because the aim is to promote flow from school orienteering into the club scene, those names were drafted looking ahead to next year and who would be at school (its primarily their competition) - FrancEs wont be at school. Perhaps a slight oversight though, as she is still eligible to run W18 so would be one of the few who are disadvantaged by not being able to run the schools champs for the Junior SuperSeries.

Following on from Pauls other comments. The 2006 competition will be much stronger (especially the guys grade). I can see the sprint O fields being really strong, seen as M16 isnt an offered grade. Perhaps the current M16s will have a little competition of their own, based on this idea, until they move into the Senior Schools scene and are running M18 at nationals.

Event 1 is a little over 6 weeks away.

Show Profile  PaulS Posted: 22 November 2004, 6:05 PM  
The 2006 will be very strong competitions so that's why its so important we get this idea realised for next year, so the systems can be tweaked and get an idea of what works and what doesn't.

Martin, in my opinion the main aim is to improve junior competition by encouraging those already at the top to seek further improvement. This series should not be focusing on participation, like what is suggested by improving "links between School O and Club O". This will of course be a benefit of holding the final events at the NZSSC but it should not be the main focus. I have already stated many times before, as have others, that the only way orienteering in NZ is seriously going to grow is if we get a world champion. The focus should therefore be on improving competition by creating an enviroment of healthy rivalry, not of trying to make orienteering look good to 200 or so people, some of whom might be intimidated by something like a SS relay. I think the junior superseries, together with good coaching and an effective organisation will one day give us a world champion. Am I thinking too grand here?

The NZOF council meeting is this coming weekend. Hopefully someone can take charge and present it with a plan for the Junior Superseries.

Show Profile  addison Posted: 22 November 2004, 6:55 PM  
I personally believe that the points system needs to be complicated to be fair.

The old sixth form certificate system, where people did say 6 subjects is a perfect example. You were ranked in each subject (which for the purpose of this example, each event will be a subject) then it is seen who you bet in each subject. The overall grades get compared to who was in which subject and a big list can be generated where say that mathematics had all the best ppl, a first place in that would mean a lot more than a first place in tourism or something. Each subject gets given a point system 1st=0, 2nd=1 etc. Then after comparison these may be 1.51 or whatever. The person whos lowest say 5 marks give the lowest overall out of 5, wins the competition. The smaller your number the better you are.

Perhaps a 6th form certificate program can be adapted for it. This will be extremely fair if you ask me, although complicated to work out at the event, at least fairness occurs.

Show Profile  addison Posted: 22 November 2004, 7:20 PM  
The only pitfall of the system, is that the winner cannot be calculated, neither can a points system until the whole competition is over.

Show Profile  Jack Vincent Posted: 22 November 2004, 7:55 PM  
yeah it sounds awesome except most of us juniors, ie Thomas, Andrew, Ciaran etc are already entered for M16A at the events and are looking to do another year in that grade but it would be great if you guys can getit all up and running for the 2006 season

Jack :-)


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