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Cheating?

Show Profile  Neil K Posted: 16 August 2004, 12:50 AM  
Is deliberatly running off the map cheating?

It was done be about 80% of the elite field at the Dunedin National short champs a few years back and it was done by a prominant elite last weekend. Are they cheats?

Show Profile  Alistair Posted: 16 August 2004, 1:55 AM  
No. Blame the course-setter. There are few rules surrounding where you can't run in orienteering (Apart from the obvious settlement and OOB marked areas).

One problemmatic one which has appeared recently is the introduction of restrictions on passing cliffs and walls in sprint-orienteering. You are not now allowed to jump down a 2m cliff or wall for example if it is marked impassable...

Another strange one which I've never actually seen written but apparently exists - is it is not allowed to cross a frozen lake. I believe a few runners were disqualified in Denmark a few years ago for crossing one in the Spring Cup relay.

Show Profile  mark Posted: 16 August 2004, 3:07 AM  
I remember a race in Europe where the finish circle was marked off the map. So everybody who ran went off the map.

Running off the map was a good route choice for a course I did at Queens Birthday as well.

We should just get rid of the maps and start running on the roads.

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 17 August 2004, 3:40 AM  
Alistair is right in principle, but its the controller where the buck stops. "Compliments to the planner and complaints to the controller."

Show Profile  AlanHorn Posted: 17 August 2004, 9:18 AM  
If the event Neil is referring to a few years ago was actually the Short-o (middle distance) at Lake Tekapo then I took one look at the "off map" option (I could see others doing it), and decided not to as it was private land. It was open farmland - much faster route choice than through the forest.

At a recent WOA OY, I, as controller, had a starters note saying no "off map route choices are allowed". This was because the locals in the know would have had a much faster option through the local streets. Blatantly unfair to out of towners otherwise.

On the otherhand at club events on Mt Vic (which is a long narrow map) we quite often do allow off map options (and say so). The only restrictions are no running through the bus tunnel and no catching a bus from one end of the map to the other (yes it can be done).


Show Profile  darren Posted: 17 August 2004, 10:19 AM  
Neil are you callling Rob J a cheat? He only went off the map last Sunday because he messed up. He didn't intend to!!
I can vaguely remember runners taking off map route choices in some European races I've been in. Nobody complained and they weren't DSQ'd! There must be a written rule somewhere, maybe we should ask Ralph?


Show Profile  Neil K Posted: 17 August 2004, 11:36 AM  
Darren. "?" this is a quistion mark. It means I'm asking a question, not calling anyone a cheat.

I do personally believe that running off the map SHOULD be made illegal for the same reason controllers shouldn't set courses so the quickest is off map. As I don't know if the rule exist, then I tend to stick to the map to keep my impeccable conscience clear.

Darren if you ran off the map you would have noticed a pretty red line, did you follow it? And did you run off the map at the Nationals?


This message was edited by Neil K on 17 August 2004, 9:01 PM

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 17 August 2004, 12:25 PM  
As Alan says, the controller shouldn't allow the situation for off-map route choices to arise, because, without a map, luck comes into the result.

But if the situation DOES arise, I can't think of anything in the NZ rules that stops a competitor taking a punt. And since the last major revision was patterned on the IOF rules at the time, maybe there wasn't anything about it in the IOF rules either!

Actually, there's no way of telling whether (s)he is off-map deliberately or accidentally. Be pretty tough to to DSQ orienteers who had got way off course but somehow managed to get back onto the map and finish the course...

Show Profile  darren Posted: 17 August 2004, 1:14 PM  
In answer to your quistion Neil, I followed the pretty red line on the map last weekend and can't remember the Nationals course. What was the map?

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 17 August 2004, 2:33 PM  
Going off the map isn't in the IOF rules but 'Fairplay' is. So if someone who knew a route choice off the map because they knew the area and chose to go that way, isn't that unfair and technically against the rules.

This message was edited by Greg on 17 August 2004, 9:34 PM

Show Profile  Alistair Posted: 17 August 2004, 4:32 PM  
Yes Michael, you are right - it is the Controller who is responsible - my use of "course-setter" was a collective generalisation to indicate those generally responsible.

Greg - as some have mentioned - at times someone may end up off the map accidentally - should they be penalised? The evaluation of whether someone actually deliberately ran off the the map could be difficult to determine and it is thus difficult to enforce a fair-play rule in this situation.

Of course - it'll be interesting to see if anyone in NZ will try to introduce the concept of time-penalties as was done at ORingen a few weeks ago. In a sprint race the initial apparent winner was given a 3 minute penalty instead of disqualification when he ran through a settlement area (the grounds of a school or house I think). He did it apparently accidentally (although seeing the picture of where he ran I'd somewhat doubt it) and gained no time advantage. The time-penalty was used so that he could continue the ORingen week with and thus get an overall result.

Show Profile  jeffg Posted: 18 August 2004, 4:03 AM  
I wish I had tarnished my impeccable conscience and taken the off-map route choice on Sunday. I made a complete mess of that leg. Found lots of good control sites though. And I won't use a stapler to close off my map bag again either.
Mark, I'm interested to know which one of the Queen's Birthday events you had an off-map route choice in.

Show Profile  mark Posted: 19 August 2004, 2:15 AM  
Day 3 - Hobbit Woods - Planner Jeff Greenwood

Show Profile  mark Posted: 19 August 2004, 2:15 AM  
Just kidding.

It was Day 2 - Otakanini Coastal, course 4

Show Profile  Chris Forne Posted: 19 August 2004, 6:42 AM  
What's the story with accidentally running out-of-bounds?
Or crossing 'impassible cliffs/rivers'?

Eg, Nationals 2003 relay race.

And are there different rules about this for sprint orienteering?

Chris

Show Profile  Brenda Boghopper Posted: 19 August 2004, 7:13 AM  
You would think that a national squad member would read the prior discussion, and if he doubted the authority of that would be able to look up the appropriate rules. Maybe he should embark on a postgraduate degree so he can learn how to research a situation...


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