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NZSS Champs 2004

Show Profile  addison Posted: 20 July 2004, 10:52 AM  
You are right Richard in the fact we will have to take your word for it. Regarding the Senior Boys squad, it must be said that we want the strongest team to represent us over in Australia. But in fairness to both Rikki and Robert, they both sort of need to go if Richard is selected. This means someone will need to be chosen to be a reserve once over in Australia.

The problem about selecting people off other events is simple. Richard won the NISS Champs, very deservedly so. Tineke won the NISS Champs. Tineke had a bad run at NZSS Champs, but stuck it out after running completly off course. She had a realtively bad time to her name. If she had DNF'd, would she be in the same boat as Richard is in Senior Boys? (therefore having a 1st to fall back on). This is one of the issues about fairness.

Richard the main issue I had about the way you DNF'd, was the fact you just told everyone you were sick. In some situations, such as myself in Australia (note I didnt DNF, I just was taken by flying Dr to Adelaide after a DNS) it is extremely obvious that an individual is sick. This was not apparent in your case. After the talk about you having a bad run had arisen, it was then that you admitted to having a bad start. By not being straight up about that fact, has undermined your word of being ill. I personally trust what you are saying, but I must admit it has put a lot of doubt in my mind. Duncan O'Regan, although I was not pleased with his attitude towards posting a time, did at least admit to having a bad run and was willing to take it on the chin immediatly.

And as an extra note about me in Australia in 2002, even when I was being kronikly sick I still was planning on running through it because it was an event of importance, as was the NZSS Champs. But thats why we have reserves, and luckily Robert Patterson stepped up.


Welcome back Martin, will have to catchup at some stage.

Show Profile  Richard G Posted: 20 July 2004, 11:57 AM  
you are correct, it is a fairness issue, and i can only say i would like to go, but the selectors will be the ones to decide. i was never actually asked about how my run was, only about why i DNF'd upon some one actually bringing up the subject of how my run actually was i readily admited that i screwed up royally. It is not my nature to brag about how good my run was, and similairly i do not go around telling people how badly i did until asked. looking back i can see how it may look like im trying to cover up a bad run with a lame excuse, and even to me it sounds like a lame excuse especially when i did not appear to be unwell before or after the event.

Show Profile  Neil K Posted: 20 July 2004, 1:37 PM  
Just to add to the debate etc. Simon have the "trials" been announced anywhere. What events do you think the selectors should look at? There is more than Secondary schools nationals and Wellington Champs. To use your All Blacks analogy, what games did the selectors look at, I bet it wasn't just how the possibles and probables performed at the last trial. I know this because atleast one All Black was selected straight off an injury that had seen him play little Super Twelve and no trial game.

Are the selectors there to give people another prize for placing in order at a certain event or are they there to use their judgement to "select" the best team to beat the australians?.....Always debatable.

This message was edited by Neil K on 20 July 2004, 8:41 PM

This message was edited by Neil K on 20 July 2004, 8:44 PM

Show Profile  Bryan Posted: 21 July 2004, 2:41 AM  
Does anyone know where I can get the results (and programme) for this event? Organisers are required to send to me (as NZOF Statistician) results and course details. I want to post the results to the Stats website (www.mtlees.com/nzof) as soon as possible (including km rates).

Show Profile  addison Posted: 21 July 2004, 3:34 AM  
Not to my knowledge have the "trials" been announced anywhere, but I believe it was promoted last year that the NZSS Champs were the NZSS Team trials last year... and for every year. Noone knew of Duncan O'Regan before NZSS Nationals, and he was picked straight from these. Perhaps that is a bit of an issue, that noone was really notified of what races were "trials" as such. I, and others, were under the impression that the NZSS Champs were going to be the equivalent of the Australian JWOC Easter Trials, where its all on the line.

The thing about using the NZSS Champs as the only "trial" is the fact that it is the only even playing field for all players. Everyone is in the same terrain, everyone is racing against everyone else and so it is not up to selectors to decide who is better, as results will show this. Is it fair for South Island competitors to have people from the North Island selected from the NISS Champs, or even the Wellington Champs. How fair is it for people from the Wellington area to have an "extra trial" by competing in the SS Champs, when people from areas such as the CDOA not having such an event?

And regarding my All Blacks analogy, look at Andrew Merthens. One good game before the trial, a good trial, in the squad. And let it be said... there are a lot more rugby games that could be seen as trials, than there are orienteering events that can be seen as trials. Rugby is a spectator sport where everyone can see everything and orienteering is a sport that to be blunt, isnt really a spectator sport in its 'pure' state. Sometimes in any sport, there are sure bets. In previous JWOC Trials there have been these sorts of people. But to say that certain individuals are sure bets after a bad run, is not the way to go about it. They should be 'excluded' from the selection process of the trial beforehand so that everyone knows it is fair.

Bryan, Ian Simpson is overall co-ordinator and im sure when the results are posted you will be notified accordingly.

Show Profile  PaulS Posted: 21 July 2004, 9:15 AM  
Results at

www.nzorienteering.com

beware 1.3 mb

Show Profile  PaulS Posted: 21 July 2004, 9:20 AM  
You can also find the programme there to but you'll have to into the "what's new" archive on the homepage to get to it, as it's no longer relevant so it won't be on other pages.

Show Profile  Dave Mcc Posted: 21 July 2004, 10:24 AM  
Beware indeed. It's good also to see the individual times for the relays. You will be a little surprised at how things turned out.

I want a schools thread........ whaaaaaaaa

Show Profile  Neil K Posted: 21 July 2004, 11:19 AM  
David....start your own thread. Go on.

Simon, I disagree with most of what you say...but then I guess I did ask for your opinion.



Show Profile  Dave Mcc Posted: 21 July 2004, 12:01 PM  
Neil.....

I mean as in general, events and training, technical and the lounge. Why can't there be one called schools? There is always stuff to discuss regarding school orienteering. Everyone knows that its where all the nations top juniors are popping up from. Look at the results from nationals. 36 finishers in the intermediate boys..... by golly thats a few.

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 21 July 2004, 2:24 PM  
There is no even playing field in NZ for the schools team to be selected from. A fair selection race would have Senior and Junior grades, like the will compete in in Australia. Yes everyone is in the same terrain at the NZSS Champs, but no one is racing against everyone that is eligible. This is where the selectors do have to do some selecting, and it may even help looking at non-schools events where people run in the same age-grade.

As I recall, the NZSSC were used as “trials” last year. And I believe that the same should be done this year, BUT in conjunction with other events. How many other sports have only one trial for their national rep team? Obviously not the All Blacks. The NZSS Champs cannot be compared to the Australian JWOC trials at Easter. The Easter Carnival in Australia is a 3 day event, and as far as I am aware, the Australian selectors look at all three days. The NZSS Champs has one individual race.

David, I look forward to the future when Sport ident is used for the majority of races, then you will find looking at the relay results even more interesting. Only then will the bunches and group running be shown.

People from the North Island and Wellington do not get an extra trial, to my knowledge CDOA is the only area that does not have a Regional Schools Champs planned for this year. I think that the NISS and SISS Champs and all the Regional Secondary School Champs should be taken into account. What has happened to the CDOA SS Champs? Hawkes Bay, Auckland, Otago, Canterbury, Southland, Wellington all have Schools Champs, although all the Schools competitions in the South Island occur in September (except for Southland) - the timing of these should probably be adjusted to give South Islanders a fair chance if the equivalent North Island events are to be looked at.

Close fields such as the intermediate boys deserve a second race to be looked at, it would only be fair given the stiff competition found here.

Selection for the Schools team should be a reward for those who deserve it and reach a required standard. Taking the JWOC team as an example, there is a set of standards (although they seem outdated/redundant), the Schools team is only in its 2nd year, but a similar thing should be done. I would suggest attitude, commitment and form/fitness. We want to be sending the best possible team to Australia.

Which is the “Pure” state of orienteering that you refer to Simon? Sprint/Middle/Classic/Relay. They are all pure forms of orienteering in my book, all requiring different skills but having the same base - you still have to orienteer. Perhaps you refer to the more traditional form of orienteering - classic distance.

This message was edited by Martin on 21 July 2004, 9:25 PM

Show Profile  PaulS Posted: 21 July 2004, 3:00 PM  
Selections will never be fair. No two ways about it.

Perhaps another day needs to be tagged onto the NZSS Champs to provide another opportunity for trial - So its Individual Champs, Relay, Trial (whatever). All that would be needed is four courses. The thing with useing past events as a criteria for selection is that they may not indicate present form. I myself had some alright runs back in April when I was fit but then suffered blow-out from mp'ing in the national classic and didn't train. Now lets say I got some really good results in April. Should I have these to fall back on because I did no training and got a shit result at ss nationals? I could make up some excuse for ss nats saying I had a one-off bad run. You would all believe me and shit, I would get in the team because I ran well three or four months ago. Now I'm not suggesting for a second Richard or anyone is in this situation. All I am saying is the selection needs to be based on current form.

The Aussie Schools trip is in September from memory. A lot can change in six months.

We should be sending the team who is the best form.

We will never know what sort of form Richard and how he compares with other Senior Boys, due to his misfortunes.

There is also the question of duncan o regan. He had a bad run, and wasn't afraid to admit it (unlike someone...). His decision to mispunch was probably more so due to expectations placed upon him to perform well. If I won last year, I would rather have no placing than 32nd (or whatever). He showed his class on relay day completely blitzing the feild. He is a contendor for senior boys.

So my senior boys team is: Richard Glover, Daniel Stott, Sam McNally, Duncan O Regan.

I only say Richard because I know he's been out there doing the hard yards.

Show Profile  addison Posted: 22 July 2004, 9:22 AM  
You cannot use the fact that an orienteer comes from the CDOA against them. I would put money on the CDSS Champs being the best competition when it actually occurs! For the first time in a long while (maybe first time ever) it is not being run, and it really pisses me off.

For those who have not run in the CDSS Champs, the format is 6 extremely similar yellow courses, sometimes done in a relay format for courses (but having 6 sets of seperating splits, via perhaps a 3way split then another 3way and everyone alternating so 6 different splits occur). Its fast, short, even playing field of all ages and basically just a great day. Top 4 times from the 6 competitors count, so if there is a DNF or a DNS it usually doesnt matter. Anyways im getting off the topic a tad, which shows how cool I think this event is. Its also the oldest running orienteering competition in NZ, having been going longer than the NZ O Champs. (I stand to be corrected)

I think the biggest solution to the selection problems that have arisen, is to implement sport ident at the NZSS Champs. Splits dont lie and people having bad runs will be bluntly caught out in the 'selection race'. Perhaps the other idea is the implementation of another day at the championships, but this does put more pressure on the host club (which I might add is usually a smaller club of late).

The idea of moving the SISS Champs perhaps would have its advantages. At present it is later in the year when exam pressures mount. By having this competiton earlier, along with the NISS Champs, perhaps the "selectors" could name a squad. This squad can then be narrowed down depending on the results from the NZSS Champs. I must reiterate my point that if someone is to be excluded from the selection process, because they are say Amber, they need to be excluded before the event so that criticism of primarily the selectors does not occur. If their intentions are pointed out plainly, then noone will have an issue with them unless the intentions themselves are controversial.


Paul, I dont believe Duncan O'Regan has justified himself to be in the squad over Riki Cambridge. Also the difficulty level in Australia is up there, in comparison to the courses that he 'blitzed'.

Show Profile  Brenda Boghopper Posted: 22 July 2004, 9:59 AM  
Yeah another thread would be a good idea. For the sustained personal criticism.

Show Profile  Dave Mcc Posted: 22 July 2004, 9:59 AM  
Simon,

I believe that you bring up some very valid points as first noted by Martin. I think that in the not too distant future splits are going to be an important part of racing. Big events at the moment like the real Nationals, Queens Birthday and a few more all use sport i-dent. Seen as though there was just as many people at schools why cant the club running the event beg borrow or steal the equipment for the weekend.

To have splits from the schools would show just how bad a start that Richard did have. If we look back to Nationals 2003 when Robert had a major mistake at one of the first controls it seemed all over. A 43 minute mistake, if it could even be called that, dropped him way out of contention. But if you follow the graph line you can see he worked his way right back up into the top half of the field. The little holes punched in Richards card will never show just how good or bad a race it was.

The relays I must admit too doesn't show alot when it comes to individual times. I was looking at them yesterday and all I can say is...... do these count? Running a grade down to what normally happens just seems to take the mickey a wee bit. I was looking for a time of one of my school boys and he was 13th. But on his course 11th. Which one should I tell him? They were presumably all different.... had different splits and should be the same distance.

But splits would show pack running, differences in distance and time.. all those kind of things. Maybe it is something to be looked at for next year....

WHERE IS MY SCHOOLS FORUM!



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