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It was not me

Show Profile  Sickman Posted: 26 February 2011, 3:57 AM  
First rogaine in WA Australia and we got DQ'd

Show Profile  Sickman Posted: 26 February 2011, 4:01 AM  
Also if that silly watch GPS thing of my team mate (that everyone wears at O events and ever other event over here in WA) could show distance or position or whatever why did we spend so much wasted time at 2 controls looking in the wrong places which were each about 500m away from the actual control locations before realising our mistakes !


Show Profile  Greig Posted: 26 February 2011, 8:31 AM  
I believe Sickman is referring to his impressive efforts at getting DQed due to having a watch with a GPS. They clearly take their rogaining seriously in WA since they were about 6th place and well behind the leaders.
I also recall Sickman telling me how great his rogaine partner is and what a fantastic navigator he is. What happened? Was the course too flat? :-)

Show Profile  Sickman Posted: 26 February 2011, 1:18 PM  
DQ'd due to someone reading my team mate attackpoint log and logging a protest. He mentioned in the log he needs to download his GPS to workout how fast we were going till we crashed and burned. We were nailing it for the first 3 hours

I have been doing a fair bit of running lately which is not normal for me, so have lost about 8 kilos and running pretty well. Went reasonably quickly for the first 3-4 hours running up slight slopes and everywhere. Then my team mate stopped running and crashed and burned and decided he should not do rogaines any more now he has wife and kids and does not get enough running in. So had to walk slowly the rest and finished an hour early (was only a night time 12hr). I hear the team that came second who we ran past and up a rise on our third control (and already a control up on them) posted on Attackpoint they thought we would win at the crazy speed we were going or die hard in a unpaced effort.

I am sure yourself Greig or crazy Joe would have kept up fine. The other problem team mate was having leaving me to navigate and since I am not as good as him at that we ended up looking for 2 controls in wrong locations only 500m out in both) but found them when we walked further and noticed we had not gone far enough (we were going slower than I realised).

I do not know much about those Garmin watches but everyone over here has one on their wrist when doing any training on foot/bike/boat and even official Orienteering events. So a bit surprised that they are allowed in state O events which I consider more professional than amateur rogaine events that carry no importance. The short is I am happy with the WARA decision and the DQ'd is fair enough as rogaine rules states GPS says GPS not allow (and they have to act on a protest), so he should not have carried one even thou it cannot be used for navigation (from my understanding). I took off my comfortable protrek watch which has an altimeter and put on my uncomfortable $2 shop watch for the event just encase someone takes these things way too seriously even thou the course was mapped at 5m contours and had a total height gain of 40m so an altimeter would be no assistance if used.

We had to fill out intention sheets at every control which was something new to me (but often in the stated rules) which I thought was not a good idea as the second place team skipped a 70 pointer and ended 15 minutes ahead of us, and at every control after that (they were doing a similar route) I could pace myself against them has I knew their splits at each control. Also I guess I could have change our planned route if I noticed the next intended control was a better than our planned route. I hear on AP that a team was DQ'd over here for 'following'. Classic.

I thought you would be asking me about the DQ Greig and others so I thought I would post first to clear the situation up. I initially thought we must have been on a wrong side of a fence in a 'out of bounds' area. Near the start there was good running out of bounds paddock next to the slower running native bush we went thou.

Oh well. Had a good laugh over it (team mate seems less humoured over it). Will know for next time.
They like their rules and politics in all sport over here. They take their amateur sports all way too seriously but then again how many Gold medals did they get in the Commonwealth Games.







Show Profile  leepback Posted: 7 March 2011, 4:44 PM  
Pretty harsh. I think most people just carry them (GPS) in their pack and drag out at home to see where they actually travelled. Personally I can't see a problem with that so long as you were honest about it and left it there. I suppose while they are of limited use in an O event, (where they are generally OK except for major events at best), they could be of greater value in a rogaine.

I'm always amazed that speedometers (or bike computers) are allowed in MTBO. They show elapsed distance which could be useful. Is there a ruling on their use?

Show Profile  rob.g Posted: 7 March 2011, 6:17 PM  
Usefull in adventure races, but for mtbo I'd rather just read the map.

Show Profile  Taupoite Posted: 8 March 2011, 1:31 PM  
To answer leepback, from the IOF rules for MTBO:

21.6 During the competition the only navigational aids that competitors may use are the
map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass. A cycle
computer may be used provided that it does not incorporate any satellite-based
navigation aid.

Show Profile  Bryan Posted: 8 March 2011, 2:47 PM  
Tonque in cheek here. Let's build a cycle computer which is not satellite based but can calculate distance travelled and bearing and also home in on the sportident electronic bricks.

Show Profile  leepback Posted: 8 March 2011, 3:37 PM  
"I'd much rather just read the map"

Totally agree as any other way spoils the fun.
If (well as if) I ever win anything it's going to be using my own skills. Can't see the point of cheating (not that I'm suggesting anyone here is cheating).

Thanks for the clarification Taupoite.
It still seems strange to me as knowing distance travelled could be an advantage as it could be with our Garmin style watches in foot-O.

As yet it still seems a lot easier and mostly more efficient to just navigate under your own steam rather than referring to these devices on the run. I'll be bringing mine over there at Easter and expect to have it on my arm. Is that the done thing or am I going to be DSQ'd?(and for the record I'm from NSW not WA)

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 9 March 2011, 9:49 AM  
We can define types of competition with any sort of tools we choose. Participants will decide whether they enjoy them, or stay away. I gather (I'm not quite that old) that when orienteers first started improving awful old topo maps, there was a reaction that "this is not REAL orienteering".

The WorldofO guy has been experimenting with types of orienteering using GPSs hasn't he?

Show Profile  leepback Posted: 9 March 2011, 2:59 PM  
G'day Michael

Of course we can define different types of competitions but to my way of thinking any navigational assisting technologies are game breakers for me as it brings our sport back toward the runners spectrum and away from any strengths I might have. Take it to it's extreme and you might as well have a yellow painted line in the forest for competitors to follow.

If they were used in a different sport/pastime (eg geocaching) then so be it. The aim of those sports are different. Also I'm not saying we should never have different styles of events like say the mobo one that was on attackpoint recently or maybe even ones utilising GPS, but they would be seen as fun events rather than real orienteering by me.

My great hope for technology improving our sport is that we get cheap tracking devices carried by all participants so we can see where they are at any given time and maybe even record their progress. Great training tools. Of course some would be horrified to have their snail trail visible to others. As an organiser I'm sure you have been stressed wondering where that overdue competitor was especially when darkness is approaching. It would be great to be able to check where they were and send somebody out to retrieve them. Not sure how these things are advancing but last time I had a look around it was still a bit pricey.

BTW - I reckon they'd be hard types to complain about better quality maps (probably Kiwi's I suspect).



Show Profile  Michael Posted: 9 March 2011, 4:20 PM  
Complaining about better maps in the old days? The stories refer to Scandinavia, I think it was between the wars when they started map corrections on the topo's. Then when someone drew a map specially for orienteering, that drew a reaction too. Bet you get people saying that your street events aren't "proper" orienteering.

Show Profile  leepback Posted: 10 March 2011, 9:33 AM  
Re street events.....

I think we say they aren't classic orienteering but to me they do fit the orienteering bill since you have a map (and compass if you wish) as your only aid. Like you I realise we need to diversify but I'd like to try and keep the original spirit of just map and compass as an orienteering event. Thats not to say we can't have other styles of events that may not be called orienteering. I know you guys have had race around the world type events in the city. They sound like a lot of fun and yes are related to orienteering but couldn't really carry that label. One rogaine quite a few years ago started near the northern section of the harbour bridge. It was called the "foot and Ferry" rogaine. It was a blast - we ran south across the bridge and collected a few controls around the harbour and then caught a ferry to near Taronga zoo.
We had another where the map was really narrow with a train line down the midlle. The timetable was printed on the map and you were allowed to catch the train. I think we didn't because it never fitted in with where we were and where we needed to be next. Traditionalist Rogainers may not have been too thrilled but both were "socialgaines" so my sensibilities were still intact.

Back to our street events and there is one distinction between them and normal orienteering....punching. We use clues with answers which sometimes can be problematic. Other clubs use boards with punches locked to poles etc and are even starting to use Sportident. We are too lazy to want to collect anything after the event so will probably stick to our current method, warts and all....at least for a while.

Yesterdsy we had a park event here locally by the seaside at King Edward Park (std punching) Everybody commented on the steep terrain but it wasn't as bad as my memory recalls of the One Tree Hill event we did a couple of years ago. I'm sure you guys have steeper ones as well.

Looking forward to your Easter events. Now to get a bit fitter in 4 weeks or so.

Show Profile  Michael Posted: 10 March 2011, 12:25 PM  
NZ's biggest rogaine: www.citysafari.org.nz. Next on 15 May. Entries open soon.

PS for Sickman: you can take your GPS. Tell me if it helps. Like the "Rocky Mountain 1000-day" event, kitchen sinks are also allowed.

This message was edited by Michael on 10 March 2011, 1:35 PM

Woops we HAVE been prohibiting GPS's and altimeters, but this has just made me realise that, with public transport stretching and shrinking distance, this is silly:-))

This message was edited by Michael on 10 March 2011, 1:42 PM

Show Profile  leepback Posted: 10 March 2011, 6:53 PM  
Bugga - we fly home on the 4th
Would love to have tried this event.

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