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JWOC Preselection

Show Profile  robmcd Posted: 31 October 2009, 6:55 AM  
Just read an email notifying of the preselection of two competitors for 2010's JWOC. Preselection? It's a new concept to me. Maybe I've missed something in my reading of the NZOF Policy on JWOC. So where did this concept come from and why the need for it? Surely if those selected are good enough (as I am pretty sure they are) they will prove it at the notified trials in fair competition with others striving to be selected. So why do it? It's soft-minded, anti-competitive, potentially divisive and all so unnecessary.

Show Profile  Ellmo1769 Posted: 31 October 2009, 8:13 AM  
Read the new policy as decided by the Council in 2009. I personally think its good as it allows those "pre selected athletes" to build towards one goal, and not have to peak twice in one year. It also provides a lot more time to organise finances which you would probably agree Rob would be a great help?

Show Profile  addison Posted: 31 October 2009, 9:08 AM  
Go read the bloody policy before posting and looking silly

Show Profile  Keith Posted: 31 October 2009, 7:46 PM  
Call me silly simon, but where is the new policy? I found the old one after a few clicks on

Show Profile  addison Posted: 1 November 2009, 12:22 AM  
Most communication is going through clubs at present due to the website not being too active. The new policy was sent out to all parties who took the time to put in submissions on it, which for the record overwhelmingly supported pre-selection, and then once the policy was rewritten it was sent back out to all clubs as well as individuals who submitted.

Show Profile  addison Posted: 1 November 2009, 12:24 AM  
New Zealand Orienteering Federation (Inc)


As approved by NZOF Council 26 August 2009


NZOF wishes to encourage juniors of suitable standard to attend the Junior World Orienteering Championships (JWOC) if they so desire. NZOF recognises the dual competitive and social aims of these Championships and will assist juniors attending by using its best endeavours to ensure official(s) is/are appointed who will travel with the team, and maintaining a suitable selection policy.


1. Any junior who wishes to attend JWOC shall provide to the Convenor of Selectors an expression of interest by 30 September of the previous year.
2. The NZOF Selection Panel may, at their sole discretion, pre-select juniors to the team by 31 October of the previous year (see Pre-Selection below).
3. All juniors (including those pre-selected) who have expressed their interest are required to confirm their availability (or otherwise) by 15 January.
4. The final team will be selected by 31 March.


1. The primary principle for JWOC selection shall be the ability to finish in the top 75% of at least one JWOC individual race (subject to the maximum number of 6 men and 6 women).
2. A secondary principle shall be commitment to future participation in the sport and possession of the qualities expected in a junior who will be representing New Zealand.
3. Subject to 1. and 2. above, and Pre-Selection below, the selection of the team shall be in accordance with the selection criteria as specified in NZOFs Selection Policy.
4. The NZOF Selection Panel may, at their sole discretion, decide to use a specific event(s) as a selection trial for the team. In such case, the date and location of the selection trial shall be notified to all juniors who have expressed their interest at least three months prior to the selection trial being held. Under no circumstances are the National Championships (when they occur prior to 31 March) to be used as a selection trial.


1. The NZOF Selection Panel may, at their sole discretion, pre-select juniors to the team by 31 October of the previous year.
2. Pre-selected juniors will automatically be selected to the final team, subject to an expectation of being medically fit at the time of the JWOC competition.
3. Under no circumstances shall the number of pre-selected juniors exceed 3 men and 3 women.
4. Pre-selected juniors are expected to participate in any nominated selection trial, but are not subject to selection in such trial. Pre-selected juniors may ask the Selection Panel for dispensation not to attend, which will only be granted in exceptional cases (as determined by the Selection Panel).


1. NZOF shall appoint at least one official to the team. Should the team size be 7 juniors or more, two officials (one Manager, one Coach) will be appointed.
2. Applications for officials will be called for by circulation to all clubs, and announcements in the December issue of the NZ Orienteering magazine, and on the NZOF website. The deadline for applications will be 15 January.
3. Appointment of either one or two officials will be made as soon as possible after that date, taking into consideration possible team size.
4. Where two officials are appointed, when needed and where possible NZOF will endeavour to appoint one male and one female, subject to the suitability of applications received. If this is not possible, the parents of any team member under the age of 18 (as at 20 June) will be asked to re-confirm the availability of their child(ren).

Show Profile  robmcd Posted: 1 November 2009, 7:10 AM  
Thanks Simon for putting up the policy for us. I mistakenly thought the NZOF website would have the current policy on it. Obviously there was debate around the issue earlier this year that passed me by but I can't see anything in the policy that negates my criticisms.
A guaranteed place nine months before the event based I presume on results a year before the event? No requirement to prove form, only 'medical fitness' (whatever that means)? Is this how other more successful orienteering nations select their teams? Does the same policy apply to WOC and World Masters champs selections (I genuinely don't know) and if it doesn't what makes juniors different.
Are the arguments in favour of the policy really only that it allows more time for fundraising and allows those selected to peak only once a year? The extended fundraising time is a nonsense. If those aiming for JWOC selection have any sense, and they all do, they are either fundraising already in hope of making the team or their circumstances are such that money is not an issue. Peaking twice in a year 6 months apart is quite possible as shown by any number of our international athletes in a variety of sports.
I stick by my criticisms; it's a weak, muddleheaded, unfair (on those selected as well as those not selected) and unnecessary policy.

Show Profile  valerie Posted: 1 November 2009, 8:35 AM  
Yes, but if Scott was one of those selected would you have posted your thoughts....I doubt it Rob.

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 1 November 2009, 9:48 AM  
If Kate wasn't would you be backing him up?

To apply for funding you normally need to be selected for a team, and funding applications normally close several months in advance

Show Profile  robmcd Posted: 1 November 2009, 10:59 AM  
Hi Val
I'm very disappointed in you personalising the discussion in the way you have. Give us a ring and lets talk about it. I'm happy to any time you are. This is the first time I have ever contributed to Maptalk and I felt able to on this issue precisely because my son is not affected by the policy. Let's keep the kids out of it and concentrate on the issue. Hey, I may be talking through a hole in my head in which case knock my arguments down. I'm a big boy.

Show Profile  valerie Posted: 1 November 2009, 11:27 AM  
Pffffft x 2

Show Profile  SimonB Posted: 1 November 2009, 4:15 PM  
seems like you have a good point mr macdonald. i would suggest bringing it up at the AGM at next years nationals or put it on the agenda for you next committee meeting.

as far as i can see it you always have a two edged sword with these sorts of decisions and thats why they have resubmissions and the like. I guess most people dont have children who are actively involved in attending JWOC so maybe the right people e.g. the parents of JWOC kids,past and present JWOC attnedees... should have been asked to look at the submission rather than just a bunch of old geezers sitting around drinking tea and getting off topic for twenty minutes about nothing substantial.

pre-selection is great. and those lucky enough to get pre-selected have a massive weight off their shoulders. but if we are going to pre-select someone we need to have support systems in place for them throughout the nine months. why not assign physical contact hours with a coach as well, otherwise the individual has to really be motivated and for nine months, thats a lot of expectation and a lot of work to be done. i mean shit, i know when i was young you have a lot of things going on in your life with out all the pressures of international glory.

valerie... wicked! you always make me laugh!

Show Profile  Selwyn Posted: 1 November 2009, 6:15 PM  
This thread exposes many issues that could be separated into new threads.

1. Web Site Stuff: Addision said that most communication is going through clubs at present due to the website not being too active. My observation is that the NZOF web site is a disaster. Its clunky, old and seldom updated, and Im an aging 60+ person. If the NZOF web site is a turn-off to me I suspect younger people never look at it. My most recent example is looking for a current list of accredited controllers. NZOF web site for this was last updated in 2005. Even if nothing has changed since then (but it has changed) then at least the web site should at least say that is current as at xx.xx.xx date. I believe that web sites are important and as I see ours as old, deficient, and not updated my general impression of the NZOF is hugely degraded. Our web site should be updated with every release of NZOF News, not just as a news release but linked to a search query. Hopefully, I search on the web site for JWOC Policy and there it is.
I may be old fashioned, but I thought web sites are a current way of finding information. Or has NZOF bypassed the web site technology and plans to move marginally forward to twitting, face-booking or signing up all its members to a text service.
I survive on well below the average wage, but would happily support an increase in my NZOF membership subscription by a miserable $0.01c per day (thats about $5,000 p.a. for NZOF if all members did the same) just to see a lively, modern, + frequently updated web site. Theresd

2. Selections Systems: In my opinion a major consideration in a selection system is that the team or individuals are finalised months before the big competition event. Thats the only way that those selected can team together and focus on the common goal of the big event. Kiwi orienteers tend to be very supportive of eachother and after selection and become team minded rather specifically competitively individualistic. I can recall examples of the converse effect in other National teams.
The process of preparing for a major event occurs many months before the event. Individuals have various types of build-up training, rest, alternate activities and intensive training. The training schedule is rather individualised, so leave it to the individual and his/her coach to focus on it after selection, months before the event. A signal for disaster is to have individuals competing for places so close to the big event that they dont have time to develop a big event supportive cohesion. Although orienteering is an individual sport, a major factor in the big day output is supported by a cohesive, supportive team factor. And in N.Z. we are short of NZOF instant funding, so individuals need to know of their selection many months ahead so they can consider the fund raising distraction.

3. Personalising discussions: How stupid on a public web site, especially when I have no idea who half of your pseudonyms represent and others seem to be privy to this information. Keep the personalised comments to emails, or texts.

4. Hi Valerie. I have no idea what Pfffftx2 means. Please explain to ignorants like me.

Selwyn Palmer, Auckland.

Show Profile  Selwyn Posted: 1 November 2009, 6:25 PM  
robmcd said: Does the same policy apply to WOC and World Masters champs selections (I genuinely don't know)
You're right Rob, you really genuinely don't know. World Masters an individuals competition, and NZOF has no input. There is no selection. Even retards like me can enter.
Selwyn Palmer

Show Profile  HeadHoncho Posted: 2 November 2009, 4:29 AM  
SimonB, assuming your comments are semi-serious, you do a good job of highlighting your ignorance.

Amongst the "bunch of old geezers sitting around drinking tea" are:

One person who attended JWOC as a competitor in 2006;
One person who has attended JWOC as a Manager/Coach;
One person who is the parent of a JWOC competitor 2008/2009.

And I wonder how many meetngs you've been to so you can make the observation that the old geezers "(get) off topic for twenty minutes about nothing substantial"

Actually, that comment pretty much sums up your contribution - assuming it takes you about 20 minutes to type three paragraphs - it's the biggest pile of horse-dung I've read on here in quite a while.

Show Profile  HeadHoncho Posted: 2 November 2009, 5:00 AM  
To Rob McD, you are not the only one to express reservations over preselection; on the other hand there are others who think it is a good idea. If over the passage of time it transpires for whatever reason to have been a mistake, perhaps the old geezers drinking tea will admit as such and revise it.

You ask what makes juniors different. Personally I think there is a difference between juniors and adults when it comes making financial arrangements for overseas sporting ventures; adults have more independence and flexibility over making such decisions, juniors do not.

You also ask how other more successful nations select their teams - such teams do not have 10,000 miles to travel and their athletes do not have to make the same financial commitment, for those two reasons alone what the "successful nations" do is not really relevant to our situation.

You believe the extended fundraising time is a nonsense, and I would beg to differ ... this year I had one prospective team member emailing me in January wanting advice on what to do about flights - cheap flights for the European summer generally start coming out at that time ... the later selections are made the more expensive airfares will be (generally) and given the athletes (or their parents) are the ones forking out the money perhaps our process should be accommodating to some of their needs?

Preselction may throw up other problems in which case I'm sure it can be reviewed. But perhaps those critical of the idea could let it run for a year or two and see what transpires. I'm reminded of the doomsdayers who said in 2000 when social membership got abolished that it would be the death of our sport.

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