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Big Rogaines

Show Profile  mick finn Posted: 9 June 2008, 7:59 PM  
Having said that, I do think that while a beer has instant appeal, a fine wine takes a little more time to appreciate and is worth the effort

Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 9 June 2008, 8:40 PM  
This year's TM rogaines were done on 1:10000 maps so participants were almost orienteering without knowing it.

Difference between rogaines and orienteering: in rogaines the map can be wrong and the controls in the wrong place and people think that's part of the fun (not me actually) in orienteering they protest (not me actually)...

Show Profile  darren Posted: 10 June 2008, 7:18 AM  
Any control in the wrong place should be protested.

Show Profile  runningbeast Posted: 10 June 2008, 7:47 AM  
With technology these days rogaine maps should not be wrong - they should be changed to be right. Map corrections should be picked up in course design or scoping and changed in the map before printing.

Show Profile  runningbeast Posted: 10 June 2008, 7:50 AM  
Record Numbers at 7th Annual Lactic Turkey Piha Rogaine
On Saturday Lactic Turkey Events put on its 7th annual Piha Rogaine. 445 people forming 154 teams of 2-5 people competed in the 3 or 6 hour rogaine in the bush-clad Waitakere Ranges west of Auckland. This area offers great terrain for a rogaine. With vast networks of walking tracks (ranging from nice wide tracks to indistinct trails) and plenty of hills  using the planning time to plan a good route is crucial.

This turnout made the event the biggest rogaine ever held in New Zealand, overtaking the previous record of 419 people at the same event in 2006.

The start to a rogaine is pretty special to watch because on the gun, teams (with all their packs on), take of in a rush in 20 different directions. If you didnt know what was happening youd think youd arrive to watch some weird loony race. This exciting start was made further interesting as the Lactic Turkey Team had created a small map of the park used for the event centre and a mini rogaine in this area meant teams could easily collect a further 200 points.

The 3 hour event was most popular on the day (365 people), with local lads in the Open Mens team Thursday Night Exhibitionists (Tom Densem, John Douglas and Greg Hall) taking out the victory with 1,280 points. These guys are some of the unofficial Huia Bush Runners club who have Thursday night 5.45pm bush runs from the west end of Exhibition Drive (Titirangi) every week (all are welcome). Wed expect a similar result from them in the next rogaine in their home territory! Second and previous winners of the Piha rogaine was open mens team Totally Random (Kane Alward and Dave Crofts) with 1,230 points. Third was the vet mens team Development Active (Jonathan Ash and Simon Mrkusic).

Only around 20 percent of the total teams decided to do the longer 6 hour event. In past rogaines the womans teams have always been close to winning and it was their turn in 2008, showing that cunning is sometimes better than pure speedy running! Team Date Loaf and Pikelet (Marquita Gelderman and Erin Roberts) took it out with 1,690 points. Marquita is no stranger to navigation, having represented NZ in orienteering for years, and together with her team partner have recently started adventure racing. They planned the race almost perfectly finishing just 3 seconds late with a valiant sprint finish, however this tardiness earned them a 10 point penalty. Second was junior mens team Jamaican Hopscotch Mafia (Edward Sai Louie and Sam Gapes) who were just 40 points behind, then in third was the vet mens team The Star Bellies (Barry Fox and Brent Raynor).
Several schools teams came out for a rogaine experience which was great to see. There were five St Cuthberts teams, a Whangarei Boys team, an Auckland Grammer team and a team from Manurewa School.

All teams made it back in one piece to enjoy the post event meal of a sausage and some pizza over much route analysis. More than 100 pizzas delivered to Piha (40 minutes drive from Auckland) was a memorable trip for the delivery boy! And for dessert - a local home baked treat, a Catlin Cookie.

For full results, photos please go to our website

The next of the Lactic Turkey Rogaines is on the 12th July at Huia.

Show Profile  marcusd Posted: 10 June 2008, 8:30 AM  
Jenni - what Darren said. If the control is in the wrong place it should be protested or at the very least the organiser should be informed.

Interesting that I have done a number of rogaines and I have never had an issues with controls being in the wrong place. I think you would find rogaines in the last few years have come along way and the course setters do everything possible to get things right. So I think your comment it a pretty unfair representation of the reality of rogaines at the moment.

Don't get me started on some AR controls though...although Jamie's races over last summer were excellent with control placement.

Runningbeast - congrats on the turn out and sorry I wasn't there. Good luck for the Huia rogaine.

Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 10 June 2008, 9:06 AM  
TM was pretty good this year but there was a track system that was
a bit wonky on the first night, with an extra zig, which got people pretty confused and Aaron and Tane didn't find the control as a result. Jamie admits he put one wrong on another day (or at least that the vegetation was wrong which meant the placement was debateable). In the Office hours, year before last, two were wrong one only 100m or so another on the wrong knoll probably 500m wrong, we never found that one but took a photo of ourselves on the right knoll. The CPIT rogaine a year and a half ago many of the controls were all over the place. I think Heights of Winter last year was pretty spot on. I hope it will be this year as well. I think it's pretty hard to correct all the fences, vegetation etc on these maps and don't expect them to be up to orienteering map standard. It would take a lot of work to get them there and noone would do it and then we wouldn't have any rogaines. I don't think any of these events should have been protested. Not sure what the difference would have been if it had been - no results prublished? - I think everyone would have been disappointed with that outcome.

It wasn't meant to be a criticism of rogaines more of orienteering. It's all just a game remember.

I did hear in Australia, about 4 years ago, that some rogaine setters deliberately took tracks off the map because they didn't want it the map to be correct as that made it too easy... IMHO that's a bit silly.

Show Profile  Martin Posted: 10 June 2008, 10:07 AM  
Lets not get started on AR controls (and especially AR maps!)

Show Profile  Old Timer Posted: 10 June 2008, 10:17 AM  
No question Jamie that the time for claiming any proprietary rights in the aferwork rogaine concept - if even possible - is long past.

Not that I would contemplate such a move anyway. I think my record shows that I have always done what I hoped is best for the growth of rogaining in NZ, not myself.

It is an interesting issue only to the extent that Shaun (sorry about the spelling above!) and Phil are making (presumably) quite good money from their rogaines. And maybe you too? But then, Lactic Turkey and MadEventz have got out, found a niche and are exploiting it, so bloody good on you I say. (Actually Phil Wood was at the first ever "afterwork" rogaine in Wellington - it must have got his thinking going!)

Did you realise that the first afterwork rogaine had no controls? Just control circles on the map, and an "honesty" system. I wonder how that would work at Piha? Ha ha...

Jenni - your comments are coming too much from orienteering, not rogaining, perspective. Rogaine map "fieldwork" - if done at all - is always pretty basic at best. Rogaining is not about navigation, but about strategy. I think Kiwis have been very slow to understand this point, which is why the large element of "social" rogainers found in Australia at every event has never properly translated across to New Zealand (although things are improving a bit).

While I have the skills to (mostly) find them, I get annoyed in rogaines where the controls are set at what I consider an "orienteering", not a rogaining, standard. Your story about the AUS control "not being hard enough" is a perfect illustration - those organisers completely missed the point.

And (while I do understand what you are trying to say) I disagree that "rogaine controls are always in the wrong place". For an orienteer, that's like the pot calling the kettle black!! I agree with Marccus' sentiments on this.

Show Profile  runningbeast Posted: 10 June 2008, 11:55 AM  
At Piha we have half of the controls as small laminated cards/flags that teams record a couple of letters and the half (generally the further away ones) as answer a question like - "whats the third word on the caution sign". This meant there was minimal collection of flags.

I still don't get the comment "I will hold off claiming a licence fee for these evnts for now!" I fail to see any claim at all?

Jamie - the events Darren and I ran were under the name Endorphin Junkies and these we pre 1998.

Show Profile  Jenni Posted: 10 June 2008, 12:14 PM  
Who said "rogaine controls are always in the wrong place"?

Not me. I said rogaine controls *can* be in the wrong place without people getting upset about it. As far as I've observed it's pretty much only the orienteers who notice they're in the wrong place (and I don't think this is just orienteers being fussy - the ones I can think of were hundreds of metres wrong). I'll say again, I wasn't making a criticism of rogaining. I like them exactly for their laid backness, that they're easy to organize because you don't have to stress about getting the map exactly right. And the for their strategy aspect. And of course the social aspect, and that everyone has a good time even when the weather is appalling as at HOW last year. And even when (because?) you struggle through a big patch of matagouri whose presence isn't indicated on the map at all. I do think rogaining is about navigation as well though. Just not about fine navigation, as orienteering can be.

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 10 June 2008, 1:43 PM  
Haha Endorphin should have been pheromone bunnies...

this "licence fee" discussion isn't for real but I am interested in when those first afterwork rogaines were in Wellington, its all a spectrum if you ask me, orienteering started off using written clues much the same as described by old timer then elements of it moved on just as rogaining is now.

In fact rogaining is orienteering is rogaining lets not fool ourselves.

As Jenni said old timer, this years TM evolved from a fully fieldworked 1:25,000 map to 1:15,000 ie what we used to orienteer on. This had some teething problems and created in my opinion so completely unnecessary work to make the map vaguely consistent and representative at that scale....but was good fun. One of my views on navigation events whatever you want to call them is that we don't get carried away with "baroque" technology (look this up) but instead have as much fun for the least effort as possible.

Sure events and organisation will change but they should change in ways that create better experiences not conform to outside norms or individuals ideas on what is best.

Yep I placed a control wrong at the Sugarloaf TM event. I blame tiredness and using a shitty print off of the competition map (be wary) I was also using the Bruce McLeod technique of the dot in the middle of the circle to encourage even more precise navigation, a dangerous technique for mere mortals like myself.

One control out of about 300 for the summer ain't too bad though (although not good enough for Jenni!)

ps (just joking innej)

ps old timer, now I have discovered who you are I'm assuming you are the same on sportzhub and I may have to dig into the archives to bring up some grudges;-)

Show Profile  marcusd Posted: 10 June 2008, 2:11 PM  
Jamie - a chess variant? I assume you are talking about variations on the theme here? I can't keep up with your Uni education! But, you are right - the most fun for the least amount of effort is good. Sometimes that doesn't always work out though.

I reckon we could do a 'celebrity deathmatch' sprint O. Building on a previous suggestion to have real head to head racing with heats etc you could organise a grudge match with someone as part of the event. I am sure any organiser would have a lot of fun doing the match ups!

Show Profile  Greg Posted: 10 June 2008, 2:37 PM  
Dont put all 'navigations' sports into the same category thank you Jamie. You are talking about different sets of attributes to meet different peoples wants/needs. We have one set for the less technically adept and happy with less accurate maps, mapping, control placement, controls, then there are those who demand their chosen activity is of the highest standard, held with precision and utmost competence and wont put-up with things like 'oh but the controller put so much effort into it' as a reason for there being a mistake.

All have an individual place, all have merits, all have followers and all have areas for improvement, as long as no one tries to make any of them more like the others to try and switch followers from one to the other then all can live in happy existence, the effort should be trying to get followers based on what they individual offer themselves, not a meshed up version of everything.

Am I going to get royalties from PAPO for next years summer carnival (since no one else has claimed coming up with the idea of the summer carnival, I'll chuck Waitangi's hat in, but I'm only after them if the event has no faults (controls wrong, incorrect mapping etc) otherwise it will just go down as another SI event)

Show Profile  Old Timer Posted: 10 June 2008, 4:50 PM  
Shaun - don't worry - the "licence fee" comment was a joke only - its just us anal lawyers who are taking that discussion any further.

Jamie - nope, sorry mate. I am not Old Timer on Sportzhub. I am there under my own name. I just "nicked" the name for this site in an attempt to remain incognito (!!).

Jenni - I may have read your first post incorrectly. Points taken.

But I do maintain that Rogaining is not Orienteering. The sooner we all recognise that the better. That good orienteers have an advantage in rogaining is a separate point.

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