 Bryan
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 5:56 AM
Bit surprised that the lakes were mostly dry. I agree with Martin that maps should be updated right up until the last possible moment.
It's good in hindsight, but I probably would have been making changes to the map right up until the maps were printed. The dry lakes should have been shown with a marsh symbol.
Maps are really not A or B Level - only the controller makes the level of the event. Many events I've been to, the map has been dodgey but the event has been great because of the planner. On the other hand, there have also been some events where the area has been brilliant but the course setting has been bad.
I remember a Phoebes Lake event when because of a tornado a few days before the event, the Whangarei club and I spent several hours the night before the event hand-drawing vegetation and track changes. As a controller I had to make the decision to put on the changes right at the last moment.
Shame that parts of the sprint map were 'wrong' on the day. I think the area is quite unique and a special sprint area. It just goes to show how much work is required to give to competitors a fair map.
It forever amazes me that I can spend weeks mapping something, and
then be told by someone running around at breakneck speed what is wrong with my map and they are right most of the time! A humbling
experience.
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Andrew M
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 8:22 AM
http://www.attackpoint.org/discussionthread.jsp/message_154848
A slight tangent... but seems like Easter in Australia had a few problems. Controls from the next day out in the same section of forest with identical codes.
People protested as well.
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Tane Cambridge
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 10:14 AM
After listening to Jamie and now reading this thread, I think maybe I should have protested or complained about the placement of one control in the middle distance which just destroyed the the rest of my race.
But when I started thinking about it I realised that I had no idea about how to go about protesting. The information doesnt seem to be readily available about the correct procedure to follow etc.
Sure its probably hidden away on the NZOF website or in the rules somewhere...but where is the information at the event? should the information be somewhere at the event?
From a vague memory, protests must be made within one hour of finishing?
is this too short (warm down, change, and then reflect on course...or wait for map to be handed back before you can reflect on your course)?
Should it be within on hour of the last finisher of the day?
When do the results go from being preliminary to finalized?
This message was edited by Tane Cambridge on 28 March 2008, 6:19 PM
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Michael
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 10:57 AM
Well, it seems that the complaint-protest procedure worked perfectly well for the start-time issue, and it may be supposed that it would have worked for lakes that should have been marshes or whatever else may have been dodgy.
But Tane doesn't know how to do it. Wouldn't it be reasonable for top orienteers to know the rules? Don't they teach people how to find out stuff at school these days? If its really really hard why don't squad camps cover it?
And Jamie knows, but feels reluctant to do it for fear of offending other competitors who are his mates. I thought that an athlete's skills included physical, technical and psychological. Isn't there a quality called mental toughness, competitiveness, hunger for success etc, which is often said to be the vital difference.
Maybe the national squad coaching coordinator could arrange for some training in this area.
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Greg
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 11:24 AM
Tane - it was in the program and just about every other program I've ever read
Michael - what national squad coaching coordinator are you offering
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thomasr
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 11:36 AM
simon, use my name next time ay.
just for the record, i didnt know about the course. Anyone would have noticed that I showed up on my bike and disappeared on my bike to go and do my warm up away from everyone just in case anyone didnt like the fact that i was starting late. I had the same circumstances as anyone else, except i didnt have anyone to chase down or get caught by as the case may have been.
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Paul I
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 11:44 AM
Protesting should be seen as an extreme event, we all have little gripes from time to time but why wreck other peoples good day. It's only sport. Every time a course is canned it puts you off, that's why I would prefer the 'void that particular control only' option - should it be necessary.
Maybe an 'incident report' of event near miss protests could be accumulated for reference to future controllers to be aware of... like the lake crossing advantage etc... however this would probably just turn into one huge vaccuum - sucking gripes and moans from all of us. Bad idea!
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Jamie
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 12:35 PM
I deliberately didn't discuss any particular event or results as I don't think that is helpful. My three biggest technical issues with the weekend aren't even mentioned here. But lets just talk about the process
That may be Michael, but I don't see how protesting is a sign of competitive edge as no-one wins or gets any glory. The sheer fact that I as a reasonably outspoken elite am now unwilling to do it because of past run ins with controllers, and the lack of desire to be the "mean guy" of the elite community, perhaps says something about the system?
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SJ
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 12:45 PM
I agree with Jamie. Protesting doesn't make you a better athlete. Who wins if a protest is lodged and upheld and the results annulled?
On the other hand it can be frustrating if your result gets buggered over by something which probably isn't your fault, but I guess there's always going to be things like that in orienteering. At the end of the day, the best people show through over time even through adversity and are therefore regarded as the best.
Also agree with Paul that protesting should be an extreme option - it's just a pity when sometimes it is necessary.
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Michael
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 1:04 PM
No I think it may say something about those controllers. The controller is right to err on the side of "status quo" for a complaint, because that is meant for "open-and-shut" cases. But when it escalates to a protest the controller should be even-handed, providing information to the jury of three which makes the decision.
Yes I've heard strong-minded people connected with the organisation expressing views on particular protests before they are heard. The controller's job is to facilitate a fair protest hearing. A few bad policemen or lawyers don't mean the justice system is rotten.
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pete s
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 1:23 PM
Thats a nice summary Michael - succinctly put. Seems to me that the process around complaints and protests is very clear and designed to deal with issues in an impartial and objective way (hence why there is a panel of 3 A grade controllers for protests - not the controller of the event). Whilst I can understand your concerns Jamie, the issue surrounding the course or running of an event is completely seperate to whether I'm friends with someone - it ain't a personal attack at all, and I am sure most controllers would want to know how they can improve. This maybe something you even experienced yourself, running your excellent adventure races of late!
The other thing I'd say is that most issues like this can be resolved through process improvement, which doesn't equate to additional roles being created (most organisational reviews (in eg business) focus on taking roles out and simplifying - not adding roles in...)
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Michael
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 1:27 PM
Yes I accept that bringing in competitive desire was not appropriate, and withdraw.
But what is left of that train of thought is that we are taught to mentally prepare for all the eventualities of the competition, and one of those is that there is something seriously wrong with the course, or more commonly something a bit wrong with the course. So shouldn't discussing how to deal with these be part of one's training? There's the immediate dealing out on the course (I think there's something in that grand old book M.O.T.) and there's afterwards.
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Michael
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 1:30 PM
Hi Pete, spoken like a consummate HR manager. A very good posting, you could say.
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addison
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 1:45 PM
Tom - in your opinion you had the same circumstances as everyone else.
What I am getting at is the precedence of allowing someone to start so far out from a start block, when they don't have any young children.
If we were to both write valid points on why it was fair or unfair, I bet I would outdo you 10x for every unfair point to every fair point you make.
I am satisfied with the result of the complaint, and as mentioned earlier, you should be as well. At least it has gone through a process that you can now refer back to.
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AlanHorn
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Posted: 28 March 2008, 2:04 PM
my response about the start time issue:
I did all the start time allocations for the Sprint, Middle and Long (with the approval from the contollers).
and this is one basic reason why I as contoller for the Sprint - went straight to the Jury. I shoudnt judge my own allocations.
FYI for all the events I had 51 requests for "nice" start times. Of this about 12 or so were requests for start times that were for "We cant get there by x" , or we need to leave by "xx" with some of these over more than 1 day - etc. I did accommodate them.
The rest were "valid" parental splits.
Over the last (some years?) or so I seem to have been doing such allocations for all other WOC major events, and I have got rather used to just accommodating those with "please start me at xxx", and "we will be turning up late because XX" and I did such again for the 2008 Nationals. (maybe my bad!)
But carrying on from Simons basic premise:
1. Should people starting outside their "allocated block" be "unofficial". no matter what? PLEASE DEABATE.
* the above would techinally exclude JenniA and SaraW. - So my Q is whats so different about a "parental" split vs a "travel problem" split.
As the computer guy for the events - I therefor also raise the problem of people changing classes (and therefor courses) over the weekend and leading up the the events.
Yes - I could do this - BUT I had no idea how many maps we had printed. Thus to be fair I should have given you start times at the very end of all the others on that course to make sure pre-enterd got their maps. But that would make you all Unofficial.
I lost track of this - and I cant be bothered.!!!
Is that fair?
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