 Chris Forne
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Posted: 22 July 2004, 10:07 AM
The job of the selectors should be to pick the best team to meet their objectives. If this is doing well over in Australia, then the people who are most likely to do well over in Austrailia should be picked.
If the selectors were to base this solely on the finishing order in one race, held in quite different terrain, then I think they would be foolish.
This message was edited by Chris Forne on 22 July 2004, 6:09 PM
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PaulS
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Posted: 22 July 2004, 10:16 AM
What do you suggest Chris?
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Neil K
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Posted: 22 July 2004, 10:48 AM
Perhaps what Chris is suggesting is that the selectors get to look at all the events they feel relevent and use their brain. And Simon I don't think you should be worried about whether the selector is embarassed or not with their decision. They should know they won't make everyone happy and must make some tough calls at times. It's their job.
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PaulS
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Posted: 22 July 2004, 11:24 AM
If the selectors did their homework, which I suspect they have employed someone to do, they will look at not only major events, but how people have been doing in club events recently. This could be a telling factor.
What makes their job even harder is that it's hard to compare a senior to an intermediate when the didn't run against each other. As far as I'm concerned, km rates don't mean much between orange and red, or in between courses due to climb. While I haven't seen the orange course, generally you can pretty much go straight. Red is different and you have to deviate to avoid big climb. (for this map anyway).
So, if (2nd year) intermediates are serious about getting in the team, they should be running Senior.
This begs the question - why throw away a NZ title? (It's not a sure thing anyway). This comes down to prioritizing. To avoid this another day is necesary. If it is too much work for host clubs to organise four courses for no more than fourty people, then for fairness and comparisons sake make the (2nd year) intermediates run senior if they want to be in the team.
The relay times show the ability to perform at high speed under pressure. Anyone right up there, regardless of pack running, is pretty classy.
By the way if you make a 43 min mistake in woodhill you don't deserve to win.
I also suggest that organisers make it more difficult for us competitors to figure out who is on what splits. At both NISS and NZSS I worked out who had the same splits - and I was right.
And speaking of pack running who out there saw those Birkenhead runners? I swear I saw about six guys conferring with each other about where they were (I bet none of them knew either). I thought you weren't allowed to talk to other people? This has been happening for years. I guess it didn't help them. Despite Birkenhead's huge numbers, Napier Boys and Napier Girls managed victory. It's good too see NZSS is no longer just a number's game.
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Dave Mcc
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Posted: 23 July 2004, 2:27 AM
What a turn around Paul. Just because you change your name doesn't mean you can simply change your ideas. I was saying before that the team should be selected on a host of results, not just one race. With regard to running up a grade I think it should be an individual choice. I would rather take the National title and hope that my other races are good enough. It seems to work well at the moment does it not. Nationals - clubs - have the age grades similar to Aussie so results there should be taken into account.
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Natalie
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Posted: 23 July 2004, 5:41 AM
Enough with the Birkenhead bashing.
Lets not criticise a school that has such a high participation rate when most of the talks on this forum are wailing about how to increase awareness and participation in orienteering throughout the community.
"I bet none of them knew either"
Graham Peters at Birkenhead College provides the team with expert coaching and training opportunities, I really resent the implication that the focus at Birkenhead is not on developing orienteering skills.
One thing for you all to remember is that most of the team at Birkenhead College do not come from orienteering families as a lot of you are lucky enough to, and have only really heard of orienteering through school. If it weren't for Graham Peters, they probably still wouldn't have heard of it let alone tried it! The whole purpose of Secondary Schools Orienteering as I understood it was to increase participation and introduce new people to our wonderful sport. If this is so, then Birkenhead should be appreciated and admired, not slated constantly...
As for your last comment, Paul S, "Its good to see NZSS is no longer just a numbers game" (note the grammatical correction), I think you will find if you look back to the days when Birkenhead won most of their NZSS titles there were outstanding individual performances contributing to the overall win, not just large participation. Names like Neil Haddon (Ferguson), Michelle and Jonene Nash, Meredith Rouse, Stephanie Paretovich, to name a few who were ones to beat by any standards.
The tall poppy syndrome is an ugly thing.
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addison
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Posted: 23 July 2004, 8:04 AM
Man up Paul. Last year we won the boys title with about 10 boys I think? Somehow I think thats a lot less people than your Napier Boys team took. We didnt have exceptional quality, but what we did have was a passion to win and we didnt go out and brag about it. Without the schools like Birkenhead, Putaruru and Newlands, Secondary School Orienteering would not be what it is today. Infact NZ Orienteering would not be where it is today.
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Greg
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Posted: 24 July 2004, 6:15 PM
Simon your posting on 'still competing when sick' is the worst load of shit you have ever written.
When you are sick the first and only thing you should do is stay in bed!
There were cases of Swedish Elites dieing while out training in the 70's (or something) and they have just published an article in the latest O Sport that they believe most of the deaths were because of a heart condition substained because of hard training/racing when sick.
Even a quote from the Swedish Coach in this article is telling orienteers not to run a shorter course (rather than the longer ones)for their club in relays if they are sick.
So Simon to say that an All Black would be giving it his all even is sick I'd think you would find that the All Black management wouldn't even let them out of the hotel.
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That Claire Girl
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Posted: 24 July 2004, 6:42 PM
Just to clarify (as i have read the same article) - Greg is right, but he should have said that the Swedish Coach told them not to run shorter courses instead of longer ones, because they should NOT RUN AT ALL!!!
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addison
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Posted: 25 July 2004, 6:03 AM
Some people just look for excuses.
And regarding your thing about the All Blacks, a lot of the All Black squad was very sick this week and even this weekend. They all still played. Amazingly they got out of the hotel to play a test match.
Also regarding being sick, there are different levels of sickness. Sure if you have something amazingly bad you should not do anything. Everyone is welcome to an opinion on being sick, just as everyone is welcome to an opinion about being injured. Some people have a weaker point of view than others. In my case I probably wouldnt train if I was sick, but if it was a "Nationals" and a "Trial for NZ Team" I sure as hell would run for about 1hr on one given day for those two reasons. I suppose it depends again on how much you are willing to look for an excuse.
So if you call that a load of shit, perhaps you should man up and fucking wipe your eyes.
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Alistair
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Posted: 26 July 2004, 11:30 AM
Simon, just to back up what Greg & Claire have said, or tried to say. Training and especially racing while ill can be dangerous. Of course there are different degrees of illness and the use of light exercise during illness can help the recovery.
But there have been athletes who have died over the last few years through training while ill, some may have had other conditions (often unknown - like heart defects etc.) which affected their situation.
Is it worth the risk?
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Chris Forne
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Posted: 26 July 2004, 12:15 PM
Stop slagging each other off.
I agree with Natalie, that the idea behind the Schools Champs should be on participation and trying to get school groups/ individuals into Orienteering. For a true open national level event, that is not just limited to school pupils, go run the Nationals.
As for being sick. Of course it will affect your performance, mentally as well as physically. Just like any other injury or mishape, it can be pretty annoying/disappointing if it affects you.
I know from experience, that being sick doesn't have to involve vomitting all over the ground. Sometimes its hard to tell how good or bad you feel until you're out there on the course. Sure some people use it as a poor excuse, so be it, the fact is they still weren't as good an orienteerer on the day.
As for showing more committment by running/finishing when you're slightly sick, what a load of Bollocks, I don't see how this applies to trials. Sure, if you are playing for a team who depend on you, you shouldn't just give up because of a slight cold. But we are talking about an individual trial, the purpose of which is to find out peoples abilities. Now, I don't see how finishing a course when you are unwell reflects your ability or commitment. As Greg and Alistair have said, it is generally unwise to push yourself too hard if you really are feeling unwell. Personally I don't like to DNF, and to me it is much worse than a poor placing. However it doesn't show I'm a better or any more committed orienteerer.
Finally as for the selection process, (in reply to PaulS), what I am suggesting is exactly what Neil says, "the selectors get to look at all the events they feel relevent and use their brain".
Chris
This message was edited by Chris Forne on 26 July 2004, 8:16 PM
This message was edited by Chris Forne on 26 July 2004, 8:22 PM
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Dave Mcc
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Posted: 27 July 2004, 7:39 AM
AMEN!
At last someone who has agreed with the idea that teams should reflect who is the overall best orienteerer not some one who pulled a fluke out the bag and decided on one race...... wooohoooo
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Martin
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Posted: 29 July 2004, 2:27 PM
NZ Secondary Schools Team 2004
Senior Girls
Sarah Gray
Rita Holmes
Lizzie Ingham
Amber Morrison
Junior Girls
Claire Dinsdale
Cara McDonald
Kirsty Turner
Georgia Whitla
Senior Boys
Riki Cambridge
Richard Glover
Sam McNally
Daniel Stott
Junior Boys
Ciaran Murphy
Andrew Peat
Thomas Reynolds
Jack Vincent
2 of the grades match the results from the NZSS champs (senior girls/junior boys), however its obvious looking at the selections in the other two that it wasnt entirely based on the one race.
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addison
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Posted: 31 July 2004, 4:40 AM
A few interesting selections. Congratulations to all in the team, and goodluck in Australia.
I take it Frances was ruled out with inury? If she wasnt, then that is a major surprise not to see her in the team. If it is because of injury, is she still in the 'squad' incase she comes right in time? She has the skills and last year proved herself more than worthy and not to take it away from the other Senior Girls but I would put her in the team over all of them (excluding Amber). She got 2nd in the Senior Girls last year (I think!) which is just amazing, if she didnt well she was still up there clearly NZ's top Individual last year.
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