 ecurb
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Posted: 15 January 2001, 7:05 AM
In the last Auckland mag there was a copy of some glossy blurb to teachers showing what Kiwi O was about.
There were 5 pictures, 2 showed a guy in a wheelchair being pushed around, one was kids sitting at their desks, one was two girls looking as if they were playing in a sandpit and the last photo was 4 kids all looking at a map. NOT ONE PERSON WAS MOVING.
What a boring image to present to the public. Where was all the exiting and interesting things about orienteering? excitement? gruntiness? speed? racing? competition? the sweatiness? Greg being Greg?!!
Boring!!!!!!!!!!
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stu barr
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Posted: 16 January 2001, 1:33 AM
I did not think any body in New Zealand was trying to promote Competitive Orienteering!!
They have never made any decent attempt at setting up a competitive season.
They give virtually no support to our elite and elite junior orienteers.
I think it is the perfect advertisement of Orienteering in New Zealand.
Maybe they should have also had a picture of a member of the public who had just come along as a spectator, being roped in to help with the organisation on the day. Or maybe an image of an inraged orienteer hunting furiously for an illusive control, which was not put in the correct place, after driving two hours to an event on a 10 year old map. Are these possibly even better advertisments of our sport??
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Dave Barr
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Posted: 16 January 2001, 2:47 AM
Surely the blurb should have just contained veterans (like the national magazine).
After all, orienteering in NZ is run purely to cater for the needs of people who already orienteer, are over the age of thirty-five and have no competitive interest in the sport. Maybe this is why we have trouble bringing new people to the sport- because we are not willing to cater for potential markets.
Of course this is because our elites don't get involved in administration. To me this is pure laziness. Surely elites should be coaching and organising events to give something back to the NZOF in return for the sweet fluffy bunnies the NZOF gives them.
No, orienteering shouldn't be seen to be a competitive physical sport. Why doesn't our publicity material show the bank balances of some of our elites and elite juniors. I am sure that this would encourage youngsters into the sport whilst making sure they never take it too seriously.
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HeadHoncho
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Posted: 17 January 2001, 9:07 AM
Even allowing for the fact that this website is renowned for its trash-talking, it has been quite a while since I have read such a pile of drivel on one page than here.
Thank you ecurb. It has taken you 15 days since leaving the NZOF Executive to get into rock-throwing mode :-)
Must be a new record.
But how Stu takes the quantum leap from ecurb's comments about a Kiwi O brochure to launching an attack on "they" not giving a stuff about the competitive side of the sport is beyond my intelligence. Maybe I'm losing it. If so, I'll fk off and do something else with my life. Before I launch into a tirade about your comments Stu, I want you to define the "they" that you have used at the beginning of your second and third sentences.
Then Dave's opening sentence about the National Magazine just made me laugh. Pick up the latest magazine. On the cover "Orienteering - a sport for life" with pics of a baby, kid, talented junior, elite, veteran and grandma. Open the magazine and look inside. Articles on the PWT (2 pages - elite event), a secondary school page, a page article on the new Development Squad management team. In fact, the only veteran-specific page I could find was about Mike Grayburn ... but that was in his role as a previous supporter and coordinator of secondary school orienteering ...
Do you read the National Magazine Dave? Or are your comprehension skills in serious need of improvement?
The fact that your father edits the magazine and I know he tries hard to produce a balanced magazine just makes me pity you Dave. God knows what he thinks if he reads this. If you don't think the magazine is balanced in its content, why is that? Could it be lack of contributions? When did you last contribute something to the magazine Dave?
To suggest that Orienteering is run purely for veterans is complete bollocks and quite frankly an affront to people who are trying to work within the sport. One of O's greatest appeals is it is a sport for life, and yes there are differing needs for juniors, elites and veterans. But to suggest those in administration ignore two of these three groups is an insult.
I think your rugby mentality starts to shine through Dave. Those in administration don't volunteer their time for money - they do it for love and to put something back into the sport. I would suggest that it is not only elites that have poor bank balances through the sport, and I will also suggest that Orienteering is no different from most other minor sports where tremendous sacrifices have to be made by top-level competitors. But that is their choice - they don't have one arm tied behind their back to do so.
But the biggest disappointment when reading this pile of crap was that in all the criticism flying around, I couldn't find one constructive piece that "they" - whoever "they" may be - could pick up on and run with. What a bunch of negative, critical a$$holes. I guess that speaks volumes about what type of people you really are.
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stu barr
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Posted: 17 January 2001, 10:01 AM
Well, it's always nice to hear someones view, once they have crossed the fence.
There was no "quantum leap" between my points and those of Bruces with regards to the brochure. He was raising the discussion that we are not promoting our sport as a competitive one. I was simply adding a few more examples to his argument. Was I wrong in doing this? I thought this was a forum..... or are we supposed to just raise personality assumptions about people and abuse them rather than what they have said??
As far as the they go. I spent a while articulating that particular part of my "comments". I guess you are a "they", Rob. Infact you lead alot of the theys. There are some theys who are so backward in their thinking that they banned Elite orienteers from competing because of Financial reasons. They are the controllers. Maybe I shouldn't have stated just that they don't seem to help, perhaps I should have mentioned also that sometimes they hinder.
I think it is interesting for someone who is complaining about other peoples negativity to bring a discussion down to personal insult. You are also one of the "Critical Assholes". A pompous twat. I guess it speaks volumes about who you really are.
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Dave Barr
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Posted: 17 January 2001, 11:45 AM
Bruce was in "rock-throwing mode" before and during his stint on the NZOF council. This is one of his strong points. In my opinion he has earned the right to criticise whatever he likes in the orienteering establishment through his years of service. Furthermore orienteering needs Bruce more than Bruce needs orienteering.
Yes Rob, I do read the magazine (I receive 3 copies of it).
Lets compare the content of the magazine to a magazine of a sport that is not on an endangered list. NZ Rugby World contains 1 page per issue about secondary schools rugby. The rest is about open age grades. The majority is about whichever premier rugby competition is running at the time of publication.
Oops, there I go on about rugby again like the rugby head I am. Imagine if we had the competitor numbers and public interest that rugby had. But of course we can't possibly pay any attention to successful sports advertising strategies. This is probably due to your orienteering mentality.
One of orienteerings greatest appeals is that it is a sport for life. This would possibly explain why we only have about 1000 orienteers in NZ. There are many sports that are sports for life- golf, harriers, athletics. Rugby, cricket and hockey have teams for over 60s.
The fact that my father edits the magazine makes absolutely no difference to my opinion of the magazine. I used that to demonstrate a point about the attitudes of the NZOF, it was in no way a personal attack (these are your territory Rob). After all, isn't the magazine the voice of the NZOF (or at least an NZOF sanctioned magazine)?
The elite coverage in the last magazine was crap to say the least. Who won the wellington elite championships (Or are Danes and Fins now eligible to win these trophies.
I don't contribute to the magazine as I have nothing worth contributing- I plan to apply for the job of editor next time it comes up. I also wish to obtain a place within the administration of the sport (e.g. on the NZOF council) and will be seeking nominations for these positions as they come up. I will continue however to criticise those in these positions until I obtain one for my self- And I will expect criticism during my administrative career (criticism comes with the territory).
I don't think those in administration should ignore juniors or veterans and nor did I say that (maybe you should brush up on your comprehension skills Rob). I do however think it is more important to focus coaching on juniors and elites. These are the people who can win world champs at elite level- surely this should be the main aim to which our coaching resources are applied.
Orienteering is perceived as being a boring, nerdy sport. The NZOF seems to be proud of this image. And I guess Rob that that speaks volumes about what type of person you really are.
Edited by - Dave Barr on 1/17/01 7:47:42 PM
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HeadHoncho
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Posted: 17 January 2001, 2:25 PM
To Stu:
Its a bit rich to be complaining about personal insults when you have previously called me a wanker and told me to fuck off in this forum. Since when did you come such a sensitive wee pussy? Nice to see you playing the double-standard card.
It is a quantum leap. Bruce was grizzling about an image portrayed in a brochure, which I might add noone on the NZOF Council knew anything about until it appeared in the Auckland Orienteer. You took that and decided to accuse me (among others) - thanks for the clarification - that we give "virtually no support to our elite and junior elite orienteers" - your exact words.
That really pisses me off. If thats what you and other elite orienteers think, you can have my resignation as National Squad Manager immediately. Come to think of it, why should I spend thousands of dollars of my own money and five weeks of my own time managing the JWOC and WOC teams this year? Virtually no support??? I'd hate to think of the number of hours I've given out of my free time over the last 5 years to support elite orienteering in admin, coaching and manager roles. I haven't done it for the money, I certainly don't do it for the thanks, but I don't expect to have the time I've spent helping elite orienteering chucked back in my face like that. FUCK YOU.
Now that's a personal insult. Note the difference.
I'm coaching at the D Squad camp next week Stu. The actions of someone who gives "virtually no support" to junior elites? Where are you? Wellington is a lot closer to Foxton than Auckland.
I feel I have given a fair bit of my time, effort and money into helping run our sport - a lot of it at the elite end. I don't think there is much worse that anybody could say to me than accusing me I give virtually no support to elites and junior elites. If there is more than one of you who feels that way, I'm outta here. Just say the word.
To Dave:
Good to see you comparing Orienteering with Rugby in this country. A fair comparison I feel. Give me the budget of the NZRFU and I'll give you a sport so exciting you'll be shooting your load on the start line.
I'm glad you admit you don't have anything worth contributing to the magazine. Yeah just leave it up to the likes of us old crusties and then complain when the end product doesn't suit your tastes. Good on ya. Very constructive of you.
You guys must live too close to the Beehive. Now Dave is pulling out the "oh i will get involved" line hoping that we will all forget in a few months time that he opened his mouth. Memory like an elephant here Dave.
In fact, the position of editor came up only a few months ago. Is this a recent burning desire of yours then - to become editor of the magazine?
And you will be ecstatic to know that the position of South Island rep on the NZOF Council is currently available. You study at Otago don't you? Why don't you join the Dunedin Club and become the South Island rep? I'm already looking forward to it.
One apology is due - I slightly misread your second paragraph of your original posting. I thought you were implying that we run Oing purely to cater for the over 35yo's, but thats not quite what you said. Sorry.
However I think Dave we do have a good focus on coaching at elite and junior level. Trouble with a young sport is we are sadly lacking in elite coaches - they don't grow on trees and until we go through a generation of good elite competitors who are willing to coach after their elite careers, this will continue. I've just gone and got acredited as a Senior Coach and will continue to help some elites who ask, like I did with Michal (shit, another action of someone who gives no support to elites ...). Sourcing overseas coaches would be a solution but we come up against the problem of money - go and get that NZRFU budget for me Dave.
Now I will get back to the original point of this thread - the image of O. Truth is we haven't done much promoting of the sport at any level over the last few years. In the 9 months since being on the NZOF Council, I've taken the time to research the issue of developing our sport and have some fairly strong opinions now about what we should be doing with our development budget. I haven't rushed into spending money because if there's one thing worse than not spending money, it's spending money on the wrong thing, esp. when you have stuff all money to spend in the first place.
If anyone wants to be CONSTRUCTIVE, I'm all ears to hear suggestions about what they would be doing to promote our sport on a limited budget.
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fraser
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Posted: 18 January 2001, 1:42 AM
Back to the original topic!
If you would like to help improve the image of O and see more photos that truely reflect the action sport that orienteering can be, then send your photos to frasermills@hotmail.com for publication on MapTalk.
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Jamie
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Posted: 18 January 2001, 2:44 AM
Kia ora to all my friends and other orienteering readers, I love you all.
It has saddened me to read the recent correspondence.
The part I have played in the past degenerating the conversation on Maptalk is no longer one that I am proud of.
It is achieving nothing.
Firstly we should have more respect for the forum, and it's wonderful creator Fraser Mills, secondly we should have more respect for each other.
I think you all have a lot to offer New Zealand orienteering, some now others a bit later on. I am especially looking forward to Dave Barr as editor.
Lets have some good constructive discussions, and keep it clean, we're scaring people off.
Train hard
Jamie
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AndrewT
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Posted: 18 January 2001, 4:06 AM
Geez, that time of the month huh.
I think all of you, apart from Jamie that is, are taking life far to seriously.
No one has to do anything for this sport, but 'they' do. Why, well I don't think its to get hassled, but you never can tell.
I do my small part of editing the Wellington Newsletter. It takes up my time, and sometimes I really wish I had never decided to put my hand up to do it, but I do it because I like orienteering.
I enjoy it, pure and simple.
And if my little 10 hours a month unpaid inconvenience can help this sport improve, if not help it survive, then its something I can live with.
All of you need a little reality check, Rob may be a bit of a prick sometimes, and I think he would agree. BUT, he is the NZOF president, and hes doing a job a lot of people are to lazy to even think about doing.
If you think you are getting a raw deal when it comes to support, then why not sort it out yourself. A friend once said to me "I can't understand why people get depressed and hate their life, when they all have the ability to change it". This is true to a point, some support is always useful, and I think that the NZOF is giving about as much as it can, the rest is up to you.
Stu & Dave, I recommend to you that you start getting back into orienteering, raise your views with committees and share your long heritage of the sport with others. The internet and Maptalk don't mean shit in NZOF.
My 2 cents....
Andrew Thompson
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pcbrent
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Posted: 18 January 2001, 4:33 AM
Hi
It pains me to see some of my greatest Friends at each others throats as in the above forum over a slight difference in opinion.
I understand that this forum is set up to encourage discussion but personal insults and tantrim throwing don't really achieve anything except winding everybody up.
People won't want to wright anything if they know that what they say will be thrown back in their face.
Perhaps this is the elusive problem with NZ Orienteering (if indeed there is a priblem).
Are we concentrating too hard on finding faults with our fellow orienteer to look at the big picture?
What is the reason we do Orienteering?. I don't know about the rest of you but I do it because it's fun. I attend d-squad camps (as a coach)and the like because I have a great time at them.
Why would anyone want to do it otherwise?
Rob if you don't enjoy being president of the NZOF or the National Squad MAnager then prehaps its not the thing for you, I personally believe that your the man for the job and would be unhappy to see you leave because of a few quick comments by a frustated member of the NZOF.
As for the photographs of people standing around, not good. Lets get people moving, I like the ones of peole running looking at a map.
But please on more photos of Jamie of Greg, are these people that we want Jo Public to be seeing?
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pcbrent
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Posted: 18 January 2001, 8:03 AM
Ops write
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pcbrent
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Posted: 18 January 2001, 8:11 AM
Ops write
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Greg
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Posted: 18 January 2001, 12:20 PM
Wow so many harsh and yet again nice words all in the same thread.
But to Mr Hat open your eyes and go fuck yourself!
I must say that Rob as done more than his fair share to help juniors and elites and NZ orienteering as a whole.
I have always said that if everybody does a little bit then we won't have only a small group of people doing all the work and getting sick of it and eventually leaving.
Everybody needs to contribute, even if it is only in a small way it all helps and if you take all the suggustions out of all the insults there are a few ideas on how to promote the sport (may slagging off at each other is the best way to get ideas?)
But personal insults at people that have really done a lot lately when nobody else would is not on. And what is wrong with photos of Jamie and I, at least we are enjoying the sport, shouldn't we be promoting that O'ing is enjoyable
Edited by - greg on 1/18/01 9:02:40 PM
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pcbrent
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Posted: 18 January 2001, 2:26 PM
Greg, I was just getting cheeky to you and Jamie. I love pictures of the both of you.
In fact I have one of each of you on my wall at home, right next to my bed.
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ecurb
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Posted: 20 January 2001, 4:29 AM
Wow!!!!!!!!!! My posting was only a comment about the perception that some people have of O. This was my first posting to MapTalk, I didn't expect all the bad mouthing and personal abuse back and forth. As Jamie or someone said "Come on guys get a life"
I wonder what kind of reaction I'll get when I make a posting about something a bit more controversial!! By the way I think the Nationals should be in January
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