 jeffg
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Posted: 26 April 2004, 8:15 AM
Perhaps any other elite women out there who read this would like to add their voice to Jenni's on which they would prefer for the National relay, a handicap start on the first leg to finish with the male elites or inclusion in the 3rd (medium) leg.
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Wetfish
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Posted: 26 April 2004, 8:45 AM
Aiden you are cabbage and CHB was never in the race. 2nd leg Te Puke didnt have a good run by the way.
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Andrew M
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Posted: 26 April 2004, 10:00 AM
Sorry if this sounds simple but...
Why cant we have seperate mens and womens grades in the National relays?
ie W21E / W35A Leg One
W45A / W18A Leg Two
W50A / W16A Leg Three
or something similar along those lines. At least this way some of the younger and older women orienteering would be included. Currently they are grossly under-represented in relay teams.
Any comments??
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Jenni
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Posted: 26 April 2004, 10:16 AM
I think what you say Andrew is what some people are advocating and it is an option. I would prefer the current format just adapted in some ways because a) I think the more different classes there are, the less prestigous each becomes b)it will probably make it harder for some clubs to field teams - if you only have 6 people entered 4 men and 2 women than you can only enter only one legitimate team c) I think having everyone in together encourages people to recognise the talent outside their own grade and sex (however at the moment women do seem to be not comparing favourably against their supposedly equivalent men's grades, so this is where I would prefer the changes made. )
I think the older women are represented in teams just not competitive ones?
I do acknowledge that with basically just three different course possibiliites outside the white/yellow ones that the older women are never going to be very "desirable" in a team, nor are the over 65 men, I guess. But I think we just have to accept that. Mostly it seems to me that orienteering in NZ is a bit too keen on making everyone a winner and so in individual events we have a huge number of grades with not very many on lots of them. I'm OK with that if everyone else is but for the relays I think it would be a backward step to start splitting them up again as they used to be. Once we get over a 1000 people entered than it could be a good move...
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Wetfish
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Posted: 26 April 2004, 11:13 AM
"Currently they are grossly under-represented in relay teams."
Whose fault is that? You (HVOC) had the chance to include them but you didn't.
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superOman
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Posted: 26 April 2004, 1:34 PM
who is wetfish?
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Jamie
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Posted: 26 April 2004, 2:03 PM
I don't see the point of having a women's and men's relay. What is the logic behind it? Why should a W55 team up with a W21E anymore than with an M21E?
I see your point Jenni that the W21E's like mass starts to and that would be sacrificed under my solution. Maybe the leg orders could be alternated every year, this would only be fair
(I am hesitant to raise this possibility considering my own great love of mass start racing and my perception that Mens elite/M35/M20 enjoy this more than most other orienteers).
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addison
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Posted: 26 April 2004, 3:51 PM
Obviously Wetfish is someone who has been around for a while, being able to pull figures out about M18A a few years back proves this... but at the same time they are onto it enough to know the goss about the North Island Secondary School Champs. And Yes I believe I know who you are wetfish.
But on a serious note: Jenni, why limit Woman to an exclusive relay? Why not have 'Open' and 'Females'. Similiar to the Schools relay structure where girls can run in the boys grade, but boys cannot run in the girls. People can still run up grades.
And why dont we go back to having a two race format for the short-o if people want competitive orienteering with pressure. Nothing quite like a chasing start if you ask me.
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onemanfanclub
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Posted: 27 April 2004, 3:51 AM
I accept that elite women are currently effectively excluded from the relay, I'm not so sure about women in general though obviously I can't speak from my own experience on this one. What I'm getting at is that while the winning teams have all been all male there have been enough placings by genuinely mixed teams to suggest a mixed win is not out of the question as long as the likes of Gillian or Amber are out there. So let's have some feedback from younger and older women, as the most appropriate solution may be different if this is a "W-issue" or "W21E-issue".
I'd rank the suggested solutions in the following order of prefernce, given that I see the strengths of the relay being simplicity and large fields...
1) Allow W21E on the medium leg - so long as the "top" male age classes allowed are an appropriate match. I don't see a problem with rotating leg order, perhaps between LSM and MLS?
2) Allow mixed sex teams only - this might reduce the number of teams though not if female participation rates are as high as the NZOF claims BUT in itself is not an adequate solution for elite women
3) Do things the rogaine way, and recognise winning mixed and all female teams as well as overall winners, without actually breaking into different divisions/races (ie a mixed or W team COULD still take the top prize). This is one of those easy ways out that doesn't really solve anything I think. We already basically ignore the other relay class (what's it called? mixed short? mixed B?) so how much attention would go to anyhting but the team that takes line honours?
4) Seperate M/W relays. Allowing (as the rules allow for individual races anyway) women to run in the "men's" race if they want or have to. I don't like this so much because it breaks up the nice big fields, and for pretty much the reasons Jenni and Jamie argue as well.
5) Sorry Jenni, I know we usually agree but I just don't like that handicap suggestion. Probably because it breaks up that fantastic mass start. Probably because there's a lot of us others on the long leg who might start also asking for a handicap. Maybe I don't like the way it would look for someone from the outside. Most likely I just think it would be a lot less pleasant running those first few controls on the first leg with only the veterans and other M21AS types for company, without any women (just kidding... mostly)
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onemanfanclub
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Posted: 27 April 2004, 3:56 AM
Anyone else familiar with threatened species recovery plans will point out I missed the "Do nothing" option. I guess I'd put it in about 3 or 4.
Not that I'm suggesting that the relays are a threatened species. At least not until Greg puts his money where his mouth is (after winning lotto of course) and runs for NZOF council.
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mark
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Posted: 27 April 2004, 8:44 AM
blah blah blah
you orienteering geeks talk a lot of shit
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Marquita G
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Posted: 27 April 2004, 9:15 AM
What about the way they do it in North America (and probably other places)? Each class is allocated a number of points e.g M21E 10 points, W21E 7 points, M65 3 points and so on. Teams are then allowed a maximum number of points, maybe 20 points using the above sort of figures (assuming 3 runners). Teams may then be made up with any combination of grades - maybe 3 even runners, or 1 really good one and 2 not so fast, as long as the points don't exceed the max. You could have 2 categories - a higher maximum points one and a lower max points one which would equate to our current mixed long and mixed short. If the points were worked out correctly it may allow some currently "disadvantaged" grades a chance to be in a competitive team.
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fraser
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Posted: 27 April 2004, 11:49 AM
Jenni, I agree that the relays should be based on your age. But the rules at the moment seem to be open to interpretion, at least Stuart has expressed his interpretations of them. It would be great to see them clarified. Relays are one of the best forms of orienteering and it would be great to see them improved in NZ (as there is still a lot of room for improvement). A few less restrictions on the grades would be great.
5 minutes head start for the girls? There are a number of reasons why I disagree with this. "Orienteering in NZ is a bit too keen on making everyone a winner" and giving them a head start seems like just another one of them.
Why not just have a relay with three legs, no restrictions? It is a race to find the best isn't it? Sure you will have some stacked teams but isn't that the point? Sure there will be some really crap teams but they will have other crap teams to race who are a similar level. Not everyone can be a winner afterall.
And bring back chasing start short o's!
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Ellmo1769
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Posted: 27 April 2004, 12:06 PM
Maybe it's just me but if you start setting a specific time for W21 to start in front of the other grades it makes it very difficult for the setter to judge how long to make the course as they have to take into account the trrain? Then again maybe it's just me.
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addison
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Posted: 27 April 2004, 12:26 PM
The problems with having a W21E on the medium course as well as some general points follow:
- W21E are overall as a grade, generally better than say M18A
- W21E runners are generally found to be assosciated with larger Orienteering clubs
- Larger orinteering clubs (eg PAPO, A) generally have strong M21E runners.
- Having a M21E and a W21E in the same relay team, sort of is team stacking. Reason for saying this, is that a W21E runner is generally at 'peak' fitness or should be, would have been running red for a relatively long time and therefore no an orange course would be expected to make no mistakes. M18A used to be the first red grade (now changed) and therefore you would expect more mistakes. Also would you put M40A overall as a grade, in the same league as W21E when W21E runs Course 2 and M40A runs Course 3?
- As well as other problems pointed out already by others.
Perhaps the easiest solution would be to make it compulsory to have at least 1 woman in a team. That way by having a W21E run leg1 may mean you can have faster junior boys on course 2 and say a M40A or M18A on leg3. But who knows, the likes of Gillian on Course 2 could be seen as being a better move.
Who knows, maybe im just ranting and raving when I should be studying... see you all at Forest Run probably, depends on if I finish my many essays that I didnt bother doing over the holidays!
And if you want to be really constructive on this forum - bring back the chasing start short-o
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