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The Current State of High performance Orienteering in NZ

Show Profile  pcbrent Posted: 11 April 2014, 10:23 AM  
Ohh, this is nice isn't it? everyone is happy living in their fairy, make believe, hippy little worlds with flowers, bubbles, rainbows and unicorns.
Lets all be nice to each other and we will be better orienteers like Matt and Lizzie (please please don't take offence (or take offence on behalf of another) if you're a good orienteer and I haven't listed you).
Good on you Tane for raising things that concern you. Maptalk is the place for it, you don't deserve to be ridiculed and your concerns deflowered by former elites like Jamie.
Note: the above is intended to be offensive to all contributors to this topic and Matt and Lizzie.
Bring on Nationals, looking forward to the shit talk already.


Show Profile  thomasr Posted: 11 April 2014, 10:54 AM  
How is the NZOF HP plan shaped? Is there such a document any more? (This is from 2006 http://nzorienteering.com/high_performance/NZOF%20High%20Performance%20Strategic%20Plan%20Jan06.pdf )

Pretty cool to read that and see we are ahead of the goals in most regards.

Clearly there are a group who have strong opinions on this. How do we all sit down and come up with something coherent and balanced that considers other parts of orienteering outside HP too? (I assume not via maptalk?)

Show Profile  onemanfanclub Posted: 11 April 2014, 2:23 PM  
if it makes you feel better Brent, I've just realised that judging by my last post then day by day I'm becoming less of a hippy and more of a right wing libertarian. How do I make it stop?

Show Profile  magnus Posted: 12 April 2014, 4:15 PM  
Not to PC Brent... love your ironic username.

Show Profile  JCW Posted: 13 April 2014, 2:47 AM  
I wonder if people are wondering why I have not posted yet? I just need to clarify. We took on the squad coach and management jobs for the year leading up to world cups. We ran several training weekends, sent out info and organised accommodation, coordinated transport and supported athletes at the events. If that was a shambles, then thats all I can manage while on a four day a week paid job. It actually took up a morning a week for several months. My understanding of it was that the job was up to and including the world cups. I agreed to act as a"mentor" after that, but only if people needed to contact me, or when seeing people at events. After that we have taken a step back. Job changes, illness in the family ( in one case terminal) , moving my mum in UK into a care home and moving house twice for earthquake repairs have all taken their toll. Also I did full time paid work last year, controlled and planned several events including NZ champs, took a group of PAPO kids to Australia and helped at junior and D squad camp. This is not a shout about all the things I do, or an excuse for not doing as much for the squad since the world cup. Its merely an observation that I said I could not do so much after world cup, and that everyone is busy and it is very difficult to fit it all in as a volunteer.
One thing I notice is that we have a lot of talented people both in senior and junior orienteering, and in coaching and organising circles, and compared to Australia, we do actually train together more than they do, on less of a budget. And we meet up more often because its easier to travel around NZ. Surely we can make this work for us? Maybe NZ champs is a time to have a big open meeting!!!!

Show Profile  Jamie Posted: 13 April 2014, 8:49 AM  
Since the status of maptalk as the un pc forum has been re-established I'll stand by my comment re the "shambles". I have spoken to most of the elites since the NZ World Cup and I think the view is shared.

The "shambles" though was a collective one.I certainly take my share of the responsibility. As a group we failed to take advantage of our home town advantage. We were particularly unprepared regarding the race terrain. For example in the sprint there were no team discussions around the shapes of the areas and the likely route choice challenges, eg the street crossings in the qualification and the fences in the final. We knew less about our own terrain than the foreign teams. In general we failed to train specifically for all terrain types, although this can be difficult.

In the lead up to the event there was minimal communication between team members regarding performance/training. There may have been more logistical information.

The learning from this for me is that as a group we needed to stand up and be counted regarding preparation and motivation. As JCW implies it is more than one or two volunteers can be expected to do alone (and there were >20 adults involved in that team).

The problem with having volunteer, or paid, roles assigned to people is that they tend to get left with an unrealistic workload. As the saying goes, many hands make light work.
I don't think people should stay in roles when they are not able to do them justice, as it creates confusion and unrealistic expectations.



Show Profile  Tane Cambridge Posted: 14 April 2014, 7:57 AM  
One of the intentions of my original posts was to highlight the lack of visibility of what is going on in the background... a meeting might be good, but only if there is a clear outcome from the purpose of holding a meeting. Maybe some of us within the National squad need to step up and take some responsibility for helping to make it happen and I am certainly open to sticking my hand up to help.

Here is some of my suggestions on how the High Performance should run/function.

National Squad.
Re-arranged along the lines of Tom's suggestions.
1) the current model doesn't seem to achieve anything, and seems to be almost working like this at the moment anyway
2) Regional squads makes sense geographically and logistically.
3) Smaller groups (under one banner) is easier when it comes to herding cats/orienteers
4) builds on the team focus of the Super Series/NZ O-Tour
5) Coaching - there needs to be a head coach to help using their experience, but the majority of coaching should come from inside the regional groups
6) manager - someone to communicate when stuff is going to happen like trials, training camps etc

NZ O-tour
Most of the visibility issues have been sorted reasonably quickly already!
1) once this series is complete we should know when the Next series starts and finishes, what events (roughly is fine)
2) I would suggest along with the regional squad model that we introduce a draft system...where by if a person is studying in another city they are drafted into the regional squad so we can look after them, make sure we get them to trainings and events etc
3) like the idea of having an internationals team as well! and maybe this can link into the National squad too.

World Cups Tasmania.
1) would be good to know when the trials are likely to be
2) someone to communicate with the entirety of the National squad about, plans etc. Not these little 'clicky' groups that tend to form when organising stuff like this... so basically a Manager??



Show Profile  thomasr Posted: 14 April 2014, 10:38 AM  
I like it. Meeting post nats middle. I'll bring the Vitasport.

Show Profile  NSmith Posted: 14 April 2014, 5:30 PM  
I think with juniors it about giving us the tools and opportunities and make it easy for us to take them in order to improve. I am continually amazed at how much Matt Ogden (and the others of his years) managed to achieve with the limited support. He has definitely shown what can be done not just in terms of international performances but also the coaching side (awesome junior camps) and events (awesome tonic)

What I would like to see is regular D-squad training happening. This can be as simple as in the afternoon after championship event or maybe a course review in the evening. Even something simple such as booking accommodation together would help create a environment for success (certainly I felt that staying with the world cup team for part of last January races was really inspiring) Hopefully a d/national squad combined camp can also become a yearly fixture.

Creation of a m/w17-20e grade. I think Australia has got it right! it would certainly allow nz o-tour to be easier and also prevent the situation lots of people running up (and frankly they should be) It really is only a cosmetic change but it would put alot of emphasis on the grade and give it the same sort of publicity as the 21e.

NZ O-tour- Michael must be commended for the amount of effort he's put into saving this from oblivion and also the nice-looking new website which has highlighted the important info and saved it from getting buried under the multitude of other interesting things posted on the fb page. However I do think that now/after nationals is the right time to have the discussion over what the format is going to be in future. We need something sustainable that doesn't change every year depending on when events have been scheduled. I also think it needs to include the big events like nationals etc in order for it to grow into a competitive series with nationally recognized value. Make juniors a 17-20e grade and it would definitely increase competitiveness of juniors if more are enticed to travel to lots of races across the country.

World Cup trails- Pure speculation here but seeing that we have to name our team by the 31 October I'm guessing the trials will be at AOA champs on labor weekend.

Show Profile  thomasr Posted: 15 April 2014, 3:33 AM  
With regards to 17-20e. I'm pretty strongly opposed to this for a number of reasons.

1. It only really inspires a few. If I'm a mid field m16, it will be soul destroying to have to race JWOC seasoned m20s all the time. I would probably just stop orienteering. Not what we want. We want orienteering for school leavers to be an attractive proposition to try and reduce the huge attrition we get as people leave school.

2. Australia has dropped the ball in terms of junior development recently. We're streaks ahead, so much so they are just copying everything we do now. It would be a backwards step to adopt a grade structure, that in my opinion, is the reason they are doing so badly and have no depth.

3. Orienteering is a small community, everyone knows everyone. Prior to a race just talk to mates and make sure all the contenders are in the same grade. Problem solved.

Agree with your other sentiments. The camps/trainings/staying together at events would all plug nicely into the tiered high performance model.

Show Profile  thomasr Posted: 15 April 2014, 3:34 AM  
Typo in there, should read m18 not m16 near the top.

Show Profile  onemanfanclub Posted: 15 April 2014, 12:41 PM  
And 'the flogging a dead horse award for best segue into one of the perrenially returning Maptalk topics' goes to Mr Smith!

I've always assumed that if there was a 17-20E grade there would also be 17-20A, so that there are still '2nd from top' and '3rd from top' steps on the ladder analagous to current 18A and 20A, but you move up if and when ready rather than the year you turn 19. Don't know if that alters your arguments Tom, but from the perspective of a once far-from-the-top junior, it's a pathway that may well have helped me... though we're talking high performance here so I'm getting off topic!

Show Profile  MikeB Posted: 15 April 2014, 4:29 PM  
Nick you are certainly on the right track here but I agree with omfc a 17-20A grade sitting under the junior elite grade is the way to go. It still gives them a chance to aspire to the top echelon but saves them getting flogged all the time by the top kids and loosing heart. With the number of juniors coming up through the ranks now both grades should still be quite large, competitive and gives them a pathway they can follow if they are good enough.

Show Profile  Alistair Posted: 16 April 2014, 12:57 AM  
Jamie, in regard to your comment about un-preparedness for the home WCs last year, I'd lay part of the blame on the NZOF and organisers for choosing such pleasant and neutral terrains. (Although the sprint was surprisingly good, with excellent planning).

Next time NZ has a WC, or any important international race, it should choose a crappy piece of steep native bush. I've never denied not knowing certain parts of Beautiful Hill quite well before that race in 94, and it certainly helped me on the day. Even though I hadn't been in that specific part of the forest for 3½ years beforehand.

At least having it in the middle of the NZ summer was good to put the Europeans off, even if a Hawkes Bay BBQ isn't everyones cup or tea ;-)

Show Profile  thomasr Posted: 16 April 2014, 2:13 AM  
If you're a reso fast m16 and move to 17-20, you're likely going to get smoked by the fast m20s. Id feel pretty bad if I had to go into what is essentially a b grade. Having 17-20a and e is the same as the status quo essentially. Its just semantics and names. Australia have it, they suck. Europe has 18 and 20, they're good.


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