 Paul I
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Posted: 29 August 2011, 5:33 AM
Jamie says..."One of the best orienteering challenges created by the 1:15000 scale is the need to be a little more selective with what you read on the map, rather than just reading everything as we normally do in NZ.
The skills this develops to be able to simplify difficult legs and make bomber plans for a leg which you can run fast and risk free are necessary ones for orienteering competitively at an elite level in Europe.
The consequence is sometimes you don't run straight because it is too technically hard/difficult to read."
I agree with this sentiment, but don't you also need to apply the same simplifications with 1:10000 or any other scale, as you do with the middle and sprint races? Therefor 1:10000 scale does not kill that part of the game.
Tane says... "I think a good long course has elements of detailed navigation but it is more about route choice and suffering than a middle. It doesn't necessarily need hundreds of controls. And as Jamie points out the controls should be all deliberately planned with a purpose rather than chosen because of cool control sites or zig-zaging the course all over itself so it looks cool on paper. In some ways I think Long distance orienteering is more about the leg than the control site"
I completely agree, and all course setters should never forget these words. Awesome.
theoman says..."I have heard stories that in the past RED 1 was the toughest, gruntiest course that the map would allow....Is there a general trend that we are getting soft??? Bring back the old days when just completing a long was satisfying, like woc this year."
 Now you're talking long, be careful what you wish for!
After some experimenting with this map I have found that another solution could be, in my eyes anyway, to plan your course on a 1:15000 printout, then when finalised the course can if neccessary still be printed at 1:10000. I do think the course ends up on simpler sites, longer legs and with more routechoice. And best of all you can read the map when you need to.
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darren
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Posted: 30 August 2011, 11:27 AM
Can we just have a tick box on the entry form for 1:15,000? Then those that want it can just have the 1:15,000 printout and everyone else can have 1:10,000. That way everyone will be happy
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Jymbo
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Posted: 30 August 2011, 2:59 PM
Darren, so simple, glad some one said it
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GeneO
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Posted: 4 September 2011, 12:36 PM
I also agree Paul. I would love to do longs like those at WOC and like what I did at O-Ringen. Although the course didn't always put you on the edge of losing contact with the map, to do the leg perfectly you had to maintain a map high map reading intensity (unless taking a long track route). Picking the quickest line though the terrain on the quickest route choice is the challenge. A tight control site and extreme detail are all welcome but make sure the purpose of the long distance is satisfied first. The long should also be a tad brutal and if you think other wise you can harden up. This does require an experienced course setter or it can go baldly and turn into a boring running race.
Basically, don't make long distance an extended middle!
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Michael
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Posted: 5 September 2011, 5:26 AM
There's a simple answer to every real problem - and it's wrong.
The specification which calls for 1:15,000 is written with offset printing in mind. There's a high initial cost with offset printing, I don't know what it is but in the old days we never used to print anything less than 1000 maps. Let's say ten people signed up for 1:15,000, they might have to share a cost of $500. To print at 1:15,000 by the digital method we normally use which has little or no up-front cost gives disappointing results in areas of intense detail.
This is a valuable discussion though. IMO the difference between the long distance discipline and the shorter ones is not well understood in NZ. The block network in our forests and the "lost distance" mantra causes a fear of decent long legs, the situation where I think that 1:15,000 gives a "perspective" that is not there at 1:10,000.
Plus a map has to be made with multiple purposes in mind as it goes from first use for a championship through OYs and then onto club events. We would expect to use it for long and middle and lots of events that sit between. There's a natural demand from experienced orienteers with fading legs and eyesight for tricky stuff, where cleverness can make up for lack of fitness. So we cram in more detail, which requires a bigger scale, and then we can cram in more detail.
It would be a luxury to make a map for a single event for a single age group.
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Paul I
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Posted: 8 September 2011, 3:03 AM
problem solved... printed out at 1:12500 the map is both compact and more readable. Just need iof approval!
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Jason
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Posted: 27 September 2011, 12:22 PM
I have been following the 1:15,000 discussion with great interest. I take the purist view that 15,000 is the standard for classic distance, but I recognise it is not economic to map and print all long distance events to that specification here in NZ. But I want our elites to have more experience on 1:15,000 so I persuaded this year's Wellington Champs long distance controller to allow it for the elite courses.
A week before the race elites were invited by email to choose between an A3 10,000 or an A4 15,000 map. It was made clear that the cartography and printing created some difficulties at 1:15,000, mainly where brown features bled together in the digital print process but also because the symbol sizes were smaller than specified for 1:10,000. The exact location of control circles was also hard to discern in areas of complex mapping. 2 of the 5 male respondees requested a 15,000 but the women responded as a group requesting that I make the decision on their behalf. I could not work out whether the IOF and NZOF rules permit or prohibit different scales for the same course, and I received views supporting for both interpretations. Not wanting to create a protest situation, we ended up providing both map scales back-to-back in the same A3 map bag. The A4 map was pushed to the end of the A3 map bag to make it easy to fold the A3 away.
I have only received positive feedback so far about the 15,000 and the extra work for me as planner to prepare 15,000 maps was manageable. However it is possible that the 15,000 map contributed to some lost time that I haven't heard about yet. Also the weather on race day was dry and warm and the men's course length slightly under-done, so it did not truly test the legibility of fine map detail. If you have feedback about the 15,000 map please get in touch: jason dot markham at yahoo dot co dot nz
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rob.g
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Posted: 5 December 2011, 2:25 PM
Website www.nationals2012.co.nz is ready with heaps of up to date information, and mapping is 99% complete. We have never had a major event that has been this far advanced in the planning.
Carnage hill is now going to be used for the finish shute of the middle distance on a new map called Middle Earth. It is a very difficult are to describe as it all on a slope, and will need some serious speed control.
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Michael
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Posted: 8 December 2011, 6:46 AM
Impressive. Most of us are only ready at the las minnit.
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onemanfanclub
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Posted: 14 December 2011, 9:01 AM
serious speed control? just how steep a slope are we talking about here!
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rob.g
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Posted: 16 December 2011, 11:42 AM
A gradual slope that mostly looks the same. Will not be a big percentage of climb, but will be a big percentage of errors. Some will reach classic times.
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Dwayne
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Posted: 17 December 2011, 2:41 AM
Slope is not overly steep or overly long - just depends on the attitude you have at the top. There is good airtime on display at Ross's blog
http://mapross.blogspot.com/2009/02/carnage-hill-worth-fun.html
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Paul I
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Posted: 20 December 2011, 8:25 AM
Some training pointers for Middle Earth/Carnage Hill... (Special tips only for Maptalk readers)
1. Tidy up your uphill navigation skills
2. Brush up on your downhill navigation skills
3. Fine tune your hillside slope navigation skills
4. Excercise your hardcore focusing skills
5. Make optimum Route Choice second nature and decisive
6. Practice Keeping Calm under stress
7. Hone your Carnage Hill technique if you want to win the finish spit
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rob.g
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Posted: 20 December 2011, 10:31 AM
Paul, I believe you are thinking of 2 carnage hill runs for the M/W Elite in the middle.
Time for for the TV stations to get onboard, and we need to have splits to the 100th Second I reckon.
Was in Waioneke at the weekend and it is stunning, with so much variety, especially if we can use a part of the old Velvet Downs map from 1994/5 that borders it.
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thomasr
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Posted: 21 December 2011, 4:36 AM
Test running the sprint courses tomorrow morning.
Some legs I don't even know which was is best to go!!!
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