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Posted: 9 February 2009, 7:02 AM
"Heavyweight sweet talker" = Clem
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Michael
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Posted: 27 February 2009, 3:53 AM
OHV has made the decision to have a "free" list of maps. What's on that list we'll decide from time to time, we are thinking park maps at present. It's a major shift in thinking so we might extend it over time.
The mechanism for making them available belongs in "Internet Q&A" I reckon. Initially pdfs on our own website, there's a separate debate as to whether a central website would be a good idea or not. It would be good to have the index to what's available in the form of a map rather than just a list for example, and do we all want to invent that particular wheel?
Now a remaining question is a legal one. I'm thinking there needs to be some sort of wording on each map and maybe on the website, about "does not confer right of access", "club accepts no liability for use" and "you can't use this for commercial purposes". I asked the NZOF solicitor for advice and as I understand it we should retain copyright even if we are expecting eg teachers and private citizens to print the maps without paying us anything.
These have always been issues when we sold or gave away maps, do you think I'm worrying needlessly?
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The Map Guy
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Posted: 27 February 2009, 9:34 AM
No you are not worrying needlessly Michael.
I am mainly concerned with two issues:
1. People, in particular schools, using out of date maps even if there is a free current version available
2. Commercial operators using our maps without paying a royalty. I have met a number over the years. They seem to think that if they have bought a set of maps (usually at next to cost price), they have a God-given right to reproduce the maps indefinitely and make as much loot out of them as they can.
The only protection/shaming of inappropriate use is to have LARGE TEXT showing important details such as "map date", "does not confer right of access", "club accepts no liability for use" and "map is not for commercial use".
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Michael
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Posted: 27 February 2009, 1:17 PM
OK. The move will surely lessen the extent of #1. And the legal advice is to TRY to limit #2 with declarations, presumably on both map and website. (I wonder if the hon. solictor's services would extend to helping us sue:-))
I'm thinking that what we must avoid at all costs is legal action against a club as provider of these maps, if a map user does something wrong. That would break us. This discussion could now turn to the exact statements that we need to make?
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onemanfanclub
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Posted: 28 February 2009, 1:57 AM
The user of this map takes full responsibility for their actions?
I'm no lawyer obviously, so perhaps the honourable Mr Harris or Mr Stewart could point out the truck sized holes in so simple a statement.
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Bryan
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Posted: 2 March 2009, 12:26 AM
We use many clauses at our work.
eg something like:
Short form:
Disclaimer and Liability
<The Club> does not warrant that the map is free from errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies. <The club> is released from all liability for any errors, omissions or other inaccuracies in the data.
Long form:
Intellectual Property
1.28 Unless otherwise agreed in writing, all intellectual property in, and relating to the map (including inventions, patents, trademarks, copyright, know how, designs, trade secrets and other proprietary rights or forms of intellectual property, and information confidential to us) and any alterations, additions or amendments to intellectual property shall remain the property of <The Club>, or of a third party as notified to you by us, and shall not be disclosed to any other person without our written consent.
1.29 We will retain ownership of the map. You will not provide, supply or otherwise make available such data to any other party without our written agreement.
1.30 We may use the map as we see fit, including building other maps, products, services or data sets.
1.31 You agree to take all reasonable steps to protect our intellectual property and ownership rights.
Liability
1.35 <The Club> shall not be liable to you for any direct or consequential loss, damage, or expense incurred by you or anyone else as a result of or in connection with the map unless the loss or damage arises directly as a result of our gross negligence or willful misconduct. In any event, our total aggregate liability to you under or in connection with this Agreement shall not under any circumstance exceed an amount equal to the total sum paid by you to us in relation to this Agreement.
1.36 You indemnify us against any liability for any direct, indirect or consequential injury, loss or damage arising out of any act, default or omission of, or any representation made by you or your servants or agents.
There are also many standard liability clauses to be found on the internet.
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Michael
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Posted: 2 March 2009, 4:45 AM
Thanks Bryan. I've also had some suggestions from the NZOF hon. solicitor. I'll distill something out of all these shortly.
I wonder what's the smallest font size we can use:-))
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Michael
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Posted: 6 March 2009, 11:44 AM
For comment. This wording is designed to go on the map, using OHV as an example. Some observations follow.
About the Map
Map prepared for .... Basemap by ...... Fieldwork by ...... Cartography by .... File xxxxx.ocd
Copyright
This map is the property of Orienteering Hutt Valley. It may not be reproduced or copied in any form without the explicit permission of the owner. OHV hereby gives permission for download and printing by individuals for personal use and teachers for use in schools. (c) OHV 2009
Use of Map
OHV makes no claim that the map is free of error. By using the map, the user releases OHV from all liability for errors, omissions and other inaccuracies. Possession of this map implies and confers no right of access for orienteering or any other purpose, whether on a road, track or elsewhere. Please respect the rights of landowners.
***
1st para: We've always had a statement about the origin of the mapping, just joining up the various fineprint clauses into a standard format.
2nd para: The NZOF solicitor suggested that if teachers were the main group that we wanted to encourage we should explicitly allow them. Other examples he felt could be dealt with by a phone call, so he's not envisaging a formal process here.
3rd para: combines the access and the accuracy issues to try and mnimise liability. Hon solictor says we can't fully exclude liability, sometimes there are just risks that we must take in life.
All: we would put similar wording on the website, not sure whether it would be map by map or we would generalise it to apply to all maps on the website.
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The Map Guy
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Posted: 6 March 2009, 3:55 PM
Really good stuff Michael, but once we put all that on the page, how are we going to fit the map in - especially if the font has to be big enough for people to read?
Maybe some sort of system where the downloader has to read the conditions and accept them before they can proceed with the download, and minimal disclaimers/conditions on the map.
If the map is a PDF file, a second page containing "Conditions of Use" can easily be inserted if you have the software.
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onemanfanclub
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Posted: 7 March 2009, 1:11 AM
Just a thought, if there was something along the lines of "contact details for landowners/managers can be obtained through the orienteering club" would that have the potential to monitor how much "casual" usage the maps are getting, or even be a potential gateway for appropriate/inappropriate use?
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Michael
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Posted: 7 March 2009, 3:30 AM
I think we can get away with 6 or even 4pt text. What with a statement about orienteering and how to contact the club, I've been putting about half of this stuff on maps anyway.
Good thought oneman, have to think about the possible consequences of failing to give a complete list though. Remember the federation wouldn't make whistles compulsory because of consequences if checking wasn't carried out. The law is soooo helpful innit.
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Michael
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Posted: 27 April 2009, 6:32 AM
Save me searching, has anyone else got maps for download on their website? I mean a set rather than the odd one.
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Michael
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Posted: 5 August 2009, 5:30 AM
Interesting how people like to twist a thread towards their hobby horse, heh, heh. On your "fabulous areas at the back of beyond" that you'd like to see mapped Jamie, I'll be there. But even though I would benefit as an addictive orienteer and a mapper, there aren't many who will travel to a faraway place except occasionally. It's not the spark that will rekindle the fires of large numbers of former orienteers who are enjoying different activities and responsibilities.
Jason Markham liked the Winter Classic because it was close to home. One can presume that Yvette Baker with three young kids and a non-orienteering husband wouldn't have travelled far. I think there's more scope close to home, in small areas, in new types of map-sport that suit those areas. And they are cheaper to provide.
I've concluded that sport doesn't work on rational behaviour. 90% of the work is done by a few nutters who do much more than is reasonable. Now you can't demand that these people toe a particular line - they will (and can only) do what turns them on. For example I recognise the huge benefits in developing the secondary school scene. However I CAN'T raise the enthusiasm for work in that area because I already did, when MY kids were at school. I can keep going only because I've found new aspects that turn me on. Close to home orienteering.
Talking of which we had some good sprint training on Saturday. The maps and courses are on the download area of the OHV website. Anyone else got maps for download? That "give them away" was a breakthrough Jamie.
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addison
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Posted: 5 August 2009, 10:55 AM
Only a breakthrough as you had your mind changed Michael! I'd be quite interested to know how many ppl have actually downloaded them and if it is actually worth the hassle. How do you even get in touch with those people who have downloaded them anyway... SEEMS like a waste of time.
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Michael
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Posted: 22 March 2011, 4:52 AM
Looking for advice on cheap/free software to put circles and numbers onto a pdf. Tending away from putting up maps with course on, if you know what you are doing you want to design your own. Found PDFill at $20 (or free if you can put up with a watermark). What else?
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